[Peter Pallotta]

I'm curious as to whether any of the architects on this board have been asked to design - or would consider designing, if asked - a 9 hole course.  Do the economics make sense (for both the architect and the developer, or one or the other)?
Is the business plan feasible?

I ask because I hear much talk about getting more people into the game, and how the expense and time involved in playing a full 18 has much to do with the stagnant participation rate. Would designing and building more top-flight, interesting and well maintained 9 hole course help?

Thanks
P

Apologies if this has been asked before; I couldn't check through all 700 topics.

[Tyler Kearns]

Peter,

I think the feasibility of a 9-hole golf course is really dependent on the direct competition it faces in the market area. Additionally, I think 9-holers are likely to draw customers from the immediately surrounding area rather than seeing people travel to play.

We are currently designing a nine-hole golf course deep in cottage country with few other options for golf. The topography and soil conditions are ideal for golf, and the influx of cottage dwellers during the summer months provide a good market for the course. Our routing plan did leave open the possibility to expand.

Whitinsville, often heralded as the best 9-holer in the United States has a waiting list for membership, so the success of such a project is possible.

TK

[Adam_F_Collins]

I think it comes down to value - time and money vs. the experience.

If a course is AMAZING in terms of design/experience, then people will go further and spend more. If it is not so well-designed, then it has to be closer and cheaper than everything else, or the only option around.

I think that the idea of value can go a long way. It seems like everything has to be a "18 Hole Championship Golf Course" - but a nicely-designed, homegrown course with low-level maintenance which is priced right will do (and does) just fine economically.

Maybe even better.

[Brian Phillips]

Peter,

Most of our work at present in Norway is mostly nine hole courses...the budgets and remote locations of the courses just could not start with 18 hole courses.

Brian

[Adam_F_Collins]

Brain P,

What are the budgets of these type of developments - can you speak generally to that?

A

[Bill_McBride]

Tyler, where is "cottage country?"  Sounds interesting but perhaps short season....

[Brian Phillips]

Adam,

For a nine hole course in Norway you are looking at about 1.5 million USD ex. taxes.  We just designed and helped with the shaping for exactly that price.  

It of course varies from course to course depending on many things, irrigation and rock the big factors in Norway.

Brian

[Tyler Kearns]

Tyler, where is "cottage country?"  Sounds interesting but perhaps short season....

Bill,

"Cottage country" is a catchall phrase to describe the typical places Canadians tend to built cottages, loosely defined as heavily forested land surrounding our infinite number of lakes, and usually a couple of hours away from civilization. In general, our season throughout lasts from late-April to mid-October.

TK

[Pete Stankevich]

Peter:
I've designed a 9-hole course in CT that should be going to construction in 2006 if (and this is a big if) the housing planned to go around it is approved.  The number$ just don't make a lot of sense if we just build the course.  Expenses for a 9-holer are very similar to those of an 18 hole course, but the revenues aren't as high.  Therefore, any "highest and best use analysis" for the property would not recommend only a 9-hole course.  
As far as the course itself, certain environmental issues and other constraints will keep the length down to about 2500 yards and a par of 33.  But it will definitely be no pushover.
There are some high-end daily fee courses in the area, as well as some other regulation-length, 18-hole public courses. So, the target audience for this course will be mostly seniors, juniors, ladies, beginners, and the countless other local golfers who can't wait for it to be open!  The good player will still find it challenging and hopefully, we'll get all types of players out there.  Obviously, 9 holes takes less time and less money.  And if the design is fun and interesting and the course is in great condition, the golfers will find you.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pete (and all)
thanks, that was interesting feedback.  I had just assumed that half the number of holes would mean (roughly) half the overall costs (for land, design, construction etc), and that these savings could be passed down to the golfer while also making the course feasible for owners/developers/designers. I do hope that more well-designed and challenging 9-holers (par 33, 34 or 35) can be built in the future - because I do think there IS a future for that kind of golf course, and golfers eager to play.

(What we don't need is more large, lavish and ugly clubhouses in the 'French chateau' style: 20,000 square feet of marble but no comfortable place to sit around with a coffee and read about the course.)

Good luck and all the best with your CT design.

P    

[Troy Alderson]

Peter,

Talk in the industry lately has been towards 6 hole routings sets.  Land is becoming scarce in high population areas and there is no room for a full 18 hole golf course.  The change is coming from the USGA, owners association, builders association, superintendent association.  I do not know if the PGA is involved.  The make the change happen, the PGA and USGA must change the way scores are posted.  The PGA appears locked in the view that a golf course 18 holes to be regulation and THAT IS IT.  The biggest complaint is time and money to play.  We need simple well designed golf courses that can cater to the business man taking a lunch break or wanting to play golf after work.  That is not possible with today's 18 hole golf courses (in general).

When I build my own golf course, I will look into three 6 hole routes so golfers can play 6, 12, or 18 holes and pay accordingly.  I will also maintain the golf course to standards set by traditional maintenance before the onslaught of color TV.

Troy

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

The cost of construction for a nine hole course would probably be 60-70% that of a full 18 hole course.  There are certain costs which just can't be halved:  the irrigation pump station and water source are two of the big ones.  Also, you can't get by with half the maintenance equipment, and it's hard to find a good superintendent at half price.

I'm not against the idea ... there are a few wonderful nine-hole courses I've seen, and I'd love to build one someday which was as good as Whitinsville, The Dunes Club, or Royal Worlington & Newmarket.  But in addition to the inefficiencies of scale, the truth is that most developers have their ego wrapped up in their golf courses, and nine holes just won't cut it for them.

From a practical perspective, the downside of a nine-hole course is that it gets too full too quickly with people wanting to go around for a second nine.  That's why they are only good for small towns or small memberships.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom, Troy

thanks for your generous/thoughtful answers. I have everything to learn about this subject and not much to offer, especially re: the practical issues; but it strikes me that 'new' ideas (in any field) are always discussed, at first, using 'old' frames of reference and common wisdoms; and always end up looking unworkable because of it.    

What I'm suggesting is that if well-regarded designers DID produce (even just a few new) courses like Whitinsville, The Dunes Club, or Royal Worlington & Newmarket, the whole nature of the discussion would begin to change, and eventually so would the frames of reference and common wisdoms. What happens after that is anyone's guess, but I'd bet those same developers who now have their egos wrapped around 18 hole championship layouts would soon have a new style of golf course to wrap their egos around (and probably wouldn't mind a bit, the ego being what it is).

Speaking as someone who can't play as much golf as he'd like partly because quality public courses are just too expensive, I know I'd be at a Tom Doak 9-holer in a second, and, if the course was properly marketed, so would a whole, whole bunch of other golfers who COULD afford to pay more.

Of course, maybe this kind of thinking is the reason why I can't afford to play 18 holes in the first place  

Peter
 

[T_MacWood]

There is something appealing about a nine-hole course built on a good property....the private domain of one person or perhaps a small group, like Simpson's nine-holer at Morfontaine for the French Duc. Simpson built a number of private/estate courses. Leeds Castle in Kent was another private course (Hutchison, Campbell, Hotchkin). If its just for a small group of enthusiasts i think you could get away with it being on the rustic side--if all were of a like mind--my impression is the original nine at Prarie Dunes was somewhat wild. Another excellent nine-holer is at Culver Academy.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Has anyone played the late Walter Annenberg's Sunnylands by Dick Wilson in Palm Springs?

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