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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2002, 05:03:27 AM »
Does the ASGCA, or other similar organizations, ever discuss ethics. For example have the ever had a Remodel University for ethics, a roundtable or symposium where ethics was the topic?

Can these architectural associations or societies be unethical? Do they struggle with what is good for their members and what is good for society?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2002, 05:23:56 AM »
Tom,
I am not a member of any particular architectural society so I do not know if they discuss ethics but I would consider things very out of kilter when we start to ask try to compare what is good for golf architects vs. what is good for society.  Gosh, there are only a couple of hundred architects vs. 250million people in the U.S.

I will say that any association or society that chooses to have an ethics clause as a requirement for membership should be very thorough in investigating an applicant for membership so that rumors and innuendos are not mistaken for fact.  While individuals involved in such a group might be ethical people ,the group as a whole would take an unethical approach to membership due to opinions of one or a few who might have other motives.  While an organization is entitled to choose its members as it chooses, IMHO such an ethics clause can be detrimental if not researched.  Many of us have seen the Greek system at work on college campuses, no doubt it is unethical but at the same time within its rights.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2002, 06:12:47 AM »
Mike
Numbers should have no bearing, it only takes one man to have an effect on a profession, on a game or on a community. Society is not necessarily the world or the nation, it could be a small community like Mullen, Nebraska.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2002, 06:15:03 AM »
Mike: It's not a numbers game...250 vs. 250 million.

Architects associations have a responsibility to the game, to society in general, and their behaviour ought to reflect basic human rights. Isn't that what "highest standards" are about? Read the Code and they do not celebrate basic human rights. I will post some Code tomorrow. Parts read like Marx or Lenin had their turn at framing rules.  Jefferson, Washington and Adams would be disappointed.  Such rules hurt golf architects, golf architecture, investors, the golfing public and their communities.

If an architecture group operates along undemocratic lines this should be known to the public.  This has not happened... the press hasn't touched the subject, and would you as a young architect want to rock the boat?  

Between starting your architecture career and being admitted for full membership (a ten to 15 year process) would you be willing to speak freely when you assume the architects associations will frown on you (and your membership chances too), and you find no support, no precedence in the press?  It is a lonely road, fraught with real danger.  To date very, very few have had the gall to question the associations, and when some have, the response by Member architects has been in tune with with their feelings of entitlement.  I can see such Independent people exiled to the architects association's version of Siberia.  Deep in the Gulag of golf architecture with little hope of rehabilitation.

Yes, architecture associations can set rules and operate in any manner they wish, until it gets challenged in court, or until the court of public opinion weighs on their fraternity.  To date they have had a free pass.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2002, 07:01:53 AM »
Whoa... you guys are taking me wrong.  I know it is not a numbers game and I know that one person can have a bearing on agroup whether good or bad.  What I meant to say was that all of the hype that has surrounded architecture in the last twenty years is just that ..HYPE...architects as celebrities will for the most part pass as a fad...and then there will just be architects...but in the game of golf...they are a minute number and there are too many other people in the industry and game that can effect things with their ethics other than architects.
Tony,
I know a little about architectural societies...unless they are licensed by the state, they can do as they please and should.  As they say you can think about the bad side and issues of the profession, you can vent but after all of that focus on the good in the business.  And then the groups don't seem that significant.
Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2002, 07:26:57 AM »
Mike
Golf architecture is a relatively young field, I do not believe the most prominent golf architects of today (or the last twenty years) are any better known than the architects of the past. And what does celebrity or hype have to do with the ethics of a professional (like you) or an organization (ASGCA). Are ethics a fad?

Since there are others in the industry that effect things, should we not focus on the ethics of the architect? Doesn’t the golf architect hold a significant position of responsibility?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2002, 05:59:42 PM »
I like what Kelly said "There can be no higher standard of conduct than the standard of conduct by which one conducts their personal life.  You do not need a business code of ethics."

Ethics are very personal, my ethics may be less or more than your ethics. The ASGCA has a code of ethics, so what, people have no personal ethics will ignore them. Others who have more ethics will exceed them.

Since the ASGCA or anyone else for that matter is not a licensing body and has very little impact on anyones ability to make a living as a golf designer. Are we not back to Kelly's statement, its ones personal code of ethics that becomes the standard.

Golf will always have client stealing, illegal wetland filling, name calling, etc. etc. Its also a very small industry with a long memory. In architecture your reputation is everything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2002, 07:42:49 PM »
Ian
What is the purpose of the ASGCA?

Certainly there will always be unethical characters in every profession, but don't you think the more you discuss and question what is ethical and what is not, that golf architecture will benefit?

Are personal ethics and professional ethics interrelated? Stanley Thompson (a founding ASCGA member) had a drinking problem, was he professionally unethical? Same with MacKenzie and Dick Wilson. Tom Fazio is by all accounts a wonderful and generous man - a great advocate of the Boy's club. Was his redsign work at Riviera (which followed redesign work at Inverness and Oak Hill he admits was a mistake) ethical?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2002, 09:15:54 PM »
Tom, "What is the purpose of the ASGCA?" I'm not really sure. I've always assumed its a collective voice to speak for the architects who choose to be a member. I admire a majority of the members, but I always viewed it as a club of sorts.

"Stanley Thompson (a founding ASCGA member) had a drinking problem, was he professionally unethical?" Winston Churchill had a drinking problem, and he was the key to the survival of England, could he have been unethical? No, Stanley's not unethical. (he has a problem) Being unethical would involve deception or deceit.

"....Was his redesign work at Riviera (which followed redesign work at Inverness and Oak Hill he admits was a mistake) ethical?" No, it was poorly done, they hired him, he did his best, we think it was inappropriate. Still no ethical violation. Bad choice of architect by the client.

UNETHICAL to me would be:

An architect based out of ^^^^^ city phones a client of another architect, says he'll undercut the other architects fees, and tells the client by the way he's incompetent, takes the work. He's unethical, he broke a code of conduct rule in his society.

An architect in an interview tells a club that he can call so and so because there close friends and have all his panelist over whenever he wants because his renovations always send the club up in the ratings afterwards. He's unethical, he's promiced something he may not be able to deliver or control.

What is ethical and what is not, was your question. There is no easy answer because I know my ethics and Doug's differ on each subject.

I'll throw a tough question back to you. You have a client who signs you to do an exclusive course in a city you have never worked in. The jobs has seemed to have died. In a suprising development another developer asks you to do a course in the same city. Do you take it? The original developer says he has no idea if he'll progress, so now do you take it? Can you take it you've got a signed agrement? The original developer tells you its shelved for at least a couple of years but reminds you of the agreement, now what do you do?

Your ethics have everything to do with the answer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2002, 04:27:40 AM »
Ian
I asked the question before, if you were approached to redesign the Old Course would there be any ethical considerations - Kelly answered there would be and that he would decline. Riviera may not be St.Andrews, but it is accepted to be one George Thomas's greatest designs (perhaps his greatest) and one of golf architecture's greatest works. If there isn't an ethical consideration in redesigning Riviera, then there is no ethical consideration in redesigning any significant architectural work.

The AIA's code of ethics is broken into five cannons, the first being 1:General Obligations. Under that first general cannon are these specific codes of ethics:

1.2 Standard of Excellence: Members should continually seek to raise the standards of aesthetic excellence, architectural education, research and practice.

1.3 Natural and Cultural Heritage: Members should respect and help conserve their natural and cultural heritage while striving to improve the environment and the the quality of life within it.

I believe golf courses improve the envorinment the great majority of time, especially when compared to normal development...so they've got that covered. Conserving their cultrual heritage is where many architects are challenged IMHO.

You do not believe drunkeness is considered unethical, but isn't profressional conduct part of the ASGCA's code of ethics? And haven't members been removed for reason's of inappropriate professional behavior...including drunkeness?

I'll take your question and ad that my firm is struggling to find work. I employ twenty full-time and if I don't get a project right away, I will have to let half of my staff go. Does that alter the ethical consideration of accepting the newest job? IMO it does.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2002, 08:06:32 AM »
Tom,

You and I have had a few personal emails on this, to be ethical and honest in my representations. ;)

I feel you are stretching the point and purpose of the ethical code to fit your views on restoration versus renovation. Voluntary ethics codes are merely the consensus of practitioners in their respective fields on proper conduct of self and business.  

You shouldn't stretch these codes into a legal crutch to force  certain design styles, like the government has somehow stretched pollution or RICO laws to prosecute people for offenses far beyond the original intent of those laws.  And yes, I think the recent addition of the "Cultural Heritage" clause is politically correct trendiness, rather than a sprecific call to design or restore old buildings in ONE particular way.  

Architects don't consider artistic impression/design a violation of the ethics code, providing designs meets the law, is safe and represents the best effort of the designer.  Who would decide what meets criteria for "ethical design"?  You?  Competing architects? Architects get their mixed verdicts through media critics, potential clients, etc.  which is effective in shaping design trends,, without being called into a tribunal of your peers.

If we had design police who could dictate which style  "passes muster", we would not have Andy Warhol, the Frank Lloyd Wright Prairie style, or any progress in the arts, period. Even if Fazio admits Inverness was a mistake, it had value.  I recall everyone saying the three new holes didn't fit in, but "you can't build them like they did in the old days."  It apparently inspired some young architects to ask "Why not?" and may have been the key moment in the restoration movement.    

I also don't see anything in the AIA or ASGCA code of PROFESSIONAL ethics that covers PERSONAL behavior, or requires a society member to be without flaw, a judgement which should be reserved for a higher power. (and I don't mean Golf Club Atlas ;))


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2002, 11:40:22 AM »
Jeff
You are correct, I do believe that golf architects and golf architecture have an ethical responsibility to protect/conserve architecturally significant designs. There have been far too many 'renovations' over the years (most at the hands of ASGCA members) -- Scioto, Oak Hill, Inverness, Riviera, Oakland Hills, Timber Point, Bel-Air, ANGC, Dornoch Hills, Hollywood, etc.,etc. I take it you use renovation and redesign interchangeably?

"A legal crutch to force a certain design style.."  Who said anything about creating laws to uphold ethics - I didn't. You can't legislate virtue. And who said anything about a certain design style. One of the most interesting aspects of golf architecture (like architecture) are the diverse styles. Langford isn't RTJ who isn't Ross who isn't Dye who isn't MacKenzie who isn't Brauer who isn't Thompson.

The inclusion of conservation in the code of ethics of the AIA is hardly due to political correctness or trendiness. The conservation movement began long before political correctness became a popular term. And what politically correct about conserving, restoring, studying and celebrating great design? 96% of all architects were involved in some form of restoration or conservation in 1989 (25% of their total revenue). And the importance of conservation and restoration has only grown in the last decade. I take it you don't believe that our cities have benefited from this 'politically correct trend'? I do. Not only is conservation and restoration been culturally beneficial, it has been proven to be economically beneficial.

What are you talking about 'ethical design' and 'design police'? This has nothing to do with new designs. My point is that significant designs - like Riviera and Bel-Air - should be conserved and protected. Who will decide what should be conserved? Golf architects, architectural scholars, amateurs, professionals, writers, professors, superintendants...the other arts don't have a problem identifying important works. There are only finite number of them (which is why they should be protected), why would golf not be able to indentify them?

That's very nice finding a silver lining in Fazio's past transgressions. But I agree it was an important moment, unfortunately the ASGCA didn't make note of it and include its lesson in their code of ethics. The conservation movement in architecture was largely a result of the negative consequences of urban renewal and modern architecture in the 50's and 60's. Fortunately architecture recognized its importance.

What is the ASGCA's code of ethics?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2002, 01:16:54 PM »
Tom,

I should have the ASGCA code of ethics in a file somewhere, but taking a quick look I can't find them.  They are similar to AIA.  

I know there is a history of conservation and preservation in architecture. We can argue intent of the language of the AIA document regarding cultural and natural heritage.  The next section talks of human rights and discrimination, which I seriously doubt was in the original code of ethics early in the century.  They update these to fit the times IMHO.  There is no point in sinking into a MacWoodian/Muccian peeing match about it.   :-/

Simply put, my examples attempted to demonstrate why you shouldn't confuse style with ethics.  Your assertion/question is whether an architect who works in rebuilding an important course is ethically obligated to maintain the previous architects style and intent.  

I say, based on ethics, no.  If courses ask architects to to update the course, or prepare it for a US Open, their ethical obligation is to carry out that project, or advise the Owner he does not think it is wise to do so, and decline the project if his/her heart is not in it,or not qualified to do it.

If the course had legal protection under the historic preservation act, he would be obligated to follow laws regarding changing the course.  However, I don't think any laws that specific exist, and it would still be a matter of professional judgement.
  
Tom, I have read our ethics code, and the AIA one you kindly linked me to, and don't see, from a professional and ethical standpoint, any blanket obligation for nearly exact preservation.  I agree there are cases where it is adviseable, but this involves common sense and is a project by project decision, not a broad professional issue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2002, 08:10:32 AM »
Perhaps the section on human rights and discrimination is politically correct, I'll let others judge that. Preservation and conservation is apolitical in my opinion. When the Taliban (before we even knew who or what the Taliban was) destroyed the religious icons built into the cliffs, everyone was outraged -- politics had no bearing.

You are mistaken if you think preservation has anything to do the style. It has to do with preserving the great works of the past and preventing the indiscriminate actions that effect those great works. It is difficult for me to understand why a golf architect wouldn't want to preserve the best designs of Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Thomas, etc. Won't preserving these men's best work benefit golf architecture in the future? IMO it is your ethical obligation to preserve your artistic heritage. When Pete Dye was asked to remodel Camargo he declined, the same with Rees at Maidstone, Coore at Merion. You don't think their decisions were based on ethical considerations?

There is nothing legal about including a conservation clause in the ASGCA code of ethics. It will simply be a guide, to remind those who already know who may have forgotten, and to guide those who may not know the importance of protecting your heritage. You don't need to tell your members how to do it. They know. If the USGA asks a member to redesign a great work and some of the architecture will be lost, they should decline. The USGA is focused on running championships, the ASGCA should be focused on preserving and protecting golf architecture. Show some leadership.

One of the reasons architecture could embrace preservation more easily, is because they were responding to buildings and neighborhoods being leveled. The evidence of the transgression was gone. In the case of golf the transgressions are still there for the world to view. It may be embarrassing to your members to have their past redesign work (which can still be seen from coast to coast) viewed as unethical. The other factor is the closed nature of your organization. You may look at taking an ethical stand as a competitive disadvantage. Open up the organization and do what is ethically right for golf architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2002, 09:14:29 AM »
Tom,
"When Pete Dye was asked to remodel Camargo he declined, the same with Rees at Maidstone, Coore at Merion. You don't think their decisions were based on ethical considerations?"
By my ethics, they made the right decision :), but there are architects who would do the work because they see ways to "improve" the course, and that's there justification :-[.

"It will simply be a guide, to remind those who already know who may have forgotten, and to guide those who may not know the importance of protecting your heritage."

Either architects respect their past or don't, guidelines are nice, but will be ignored. This just isn't the same as accounting principles where there is a legal action for those who break the ethics of the business.

"The USGA is focused on running championships, the ASGCA should be focused on preserving and protecting golf architecture. Show some leadership."

If it only was that simple, if the USGA would control the f'n ball, it would go a lot further to help preservation. Don't you think length is causing more problems for architects than any other element right now.

Do I wish the ASGCA was stronger at pushing conservation? Yes. BUT be realistic the ASGCA is not the Donald Ross Society. Its a colection of diversely opinionated golf architects, they are there to represent all.

The only question I pose to you is about evolution, are some course better now than how they were? Do you still have an ethical responsibility to undo those changes to respect history?

Tom, I think while your thoughts are very noble, to find the line in the sand to say what should be conserved is impossible, and that's where the problem lies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2002, 01:06:06 PM »
Well put, Ian.  A great way to explain it, as its hard to draw a line in the sand, especially considering most courses have evolved (often for the better, but again, that's a judgement call) over the years. I will try one more.....

Artists and designers of all kinds value freedom of design expression just as citizens value freedom of opinion expression.  And, just as you may disagree with what I say, but defend my right to say it, designers will defend another architect's right to design expression, whether they like it or not.  That right is a big picture issue for designers, a constitutional issue versus an individual (in which preservation of golf courses falls) law issue, .  Few professionals would go serve on an ethics board to disipline another for so called design transgressions.

Tom,

I think all kinds of preservation is very political!  There rarely is one right answer to any issue, only shades of gray perspective.  Getting your idea (as greens chairman, or whatever) pushed through is politics!

And preservation in all fields is some about style, and even more about designs true meaning, which is function!  And even as much about politics.  (as in what city district do we spend federal funds) Yes, it was sad to see old buildings torn down, but if they couldn't be made safe, or found no economic value, like converting train depots and old factorys to restaurants, offices, or lofts, or living museums (most with public subsidy) they did not get restored.  

Yes, golf courses still serve the same function, but we spend lots of time and typing here discussing just how much the game has changed. So, it makes sense to SOME people that the courses must change, especially since they won't get any public museum subsidies.  In essence, I understand your passion for preservation, but you may feel differently about footing the bill for it! ::)

I agree preservation should be part of our heritage.  I just don't know that it has to be all inclusive, nor do I think it should necessarily be the focus of ASGCA.  In the last few years, we have focused on affordable golf and environmental protection, which, it can be argued, does far more for golf than had we put all our energy into preserving a few old courses, even if we could be effective.  (Our track record as a small group really is symbolic more than substantial)

BTW, calling the ASGCA a closed organization, or suggesting it is unethical is simply not so.  As to ethics, you know 4 members, who you think are honest men, so do you think we are the exceptions?  

As to openess, any practicing American golf course architect meeting our minimum qualifications (which have changed little since 1947) and successfully completing a rigorous (yet standard) screening process, gets a democratic vote. While there may be a few mistakes over the years in that process, equal treatment of applications and the democratic process is correct in the very, very, large majority of membership votes.

You may champion the case of non-members, and that is your right. But, if an architect is not in, believe me, chances are overwhelming that she/he either doesn't have yet the experience we require, doesn't practice in an ethical manner as best as we can determine, (at least as we or AIA define it) or has never applied.  

The A.I.A. model of accepting any one with a degree, a few months experience as an associate, and someone willing to pay his dues serves a profession of thousands well, but the membership requirements for ASGCA works well for our small profession.  The people who are not in ASGCA - and some quirks in the system, which are inevitable (ie, needing 5 courses leaves out renovation specialists) may be magnified by the having such small numbers in the profession.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ian

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2002, 02:25:42 PM »
"Artists and designers of all kinds value freedom of design expression just as citizens value freedom of opinion expression.  And, just as you may disagree with what I say, but defend my right to say it, designers will defend another architect's right to design expression, whether they like it or not.  That right is a big picture issue for designers, a constitutional issue versus an individual (in which preservation of golf courses falls) law issue, .  Few professionals would go serve on an ethics board to disipline another for so called design transgressions."

Jeff, well put.

The ASGCA needs to examine the renovation issue. I am qualified to join, but I don't like that renovation is not concidered important. This may come back to Tom's case against the ASGCA. Most of the guys who are the restoration specialsits are not part of the society, and therefore not having influence on the society. If restoration guys were part of the committees and meetings, that potentially would encourage conservation (?). The ASGCA list contains some really great people, but it could be better with bringing some of these guys in.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2002, 08:16:06 PM »
Ian,

I appreciate that perspective on renovation designers being in the society.  We have discussed at length whether renovation and/or restoration work should be included as qualifications for initial membership.  Twice in a decade, in a vote of the members, we - as I suspect most would - have decided that new course design is the fullest expression of design skill, and our rules for membership reflect that.  

We don't consider renovation work as "not important."  It is a substantial portion of most architects work.  We recognize that a side effect of this policy over the years is that there are a few good architects that will just have to wait until they design the requisite number of new courses, in additon to their restoration/renovation work.  ASGCA will still be here. :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2002, 09:10:20 PM »
Ian
"Either architects respect their past or don't, guidelines are nice, but will be ignored. This just isn't the same as accounting principles where there is a legal action for those who break the ethics of the business." Are golf architects inherently unethical? Why do architects respect their heritage? Just because their are lawless individuals doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws.
 
I agree the ASGCA is not Donald Ross Society (although they wear Ross plaid jackets), it is the American Society of Golf Course Architects -- they are the Ross, MacKenzie, Flynn, Thompson, Travis, Colt, Raynor, Alison, Maxwell, RTJ, Dye, Langford, Tillinghast, MMacdonald, Strong, Park, etc Society.

Do I think golf courses have been improved? Hell yes! Many have been improved, but unfortunately far too many great ones have been defaced. We are only talking about the creme de la creme. How many Thompson courses have been improved by your Canadian brethren?

Jeff
In my mind political issues boil down to left vs right, preserving golf architecture's heritage is not a polarizing issue. The problem is a lack of leadership and organization that looks after what is beneficial for its members and not what is beneficial for golf architecture. Yes the AGGCA is made up of many good people, but the organization is closed. There are founding members of the ASGCA that would not qualify today - JB McGovern. I'm not a champion of anyone, I'm a champion in preserving history as a way of improving the future. The nature of your exclusiveness has effected your ability to lead.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2002, 04:27:53 PM »
Jeff, in hindsight my rant on renovation and the ASGCA was both inappropriate. Sorry.

Tom, I looked up ethical to see if I was off base. ethical: "Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession"

I'm in agreement with your idea on principle, but through the definition of restoration on this site I have learnt that the standards can be set very, very high. The question then becomes, what is worthy of preserving and who would decide. What if I felt a course by Travis was important, but the membership (and another architect) felt that it was no a strong enough course to merit preservation. Who's right?

I would like to see architects more respectful, but I would like to see clubs make better decisions too. Have you ever thought about taking a different approach, like with buildings. The club has a historical designation attached to it, and now the club has to apprach a golf course architecture historical board on the merits of each change. Since we can't count on all architects, we use legislation to remove them from the equation. Do I want this? I don't know. Again I like your idea, but I'm afraid of how this would work.

Tom, very interesting thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2002, 05:21:32 PM »
IMHO restoration of a golf course is something that is entirely up to an owner whether it be a private club or individual or municipality.  No one has any business trying to tell that club what to do with its golf course whether it be considered a classical gem by some or not.  If that club chooses someone to restore their club and they like and approve of what was done then that is the end of the question.  There is no ethical violation of any kind any where.  This site may be free to dream and discuss how they would envision or dictate restorations of specific projects but that is where you draw the line.  THE DECISION OF HOW TO MANAGE ONES COURSE IS UP TO THE OWNERSHIP AND NO ONE ELSE WHETHER WE AGREE OR NOT.
mIKE
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2002, 06:27:51 PM »
Mike
Interesting....but confusing. Who said anything about dictating to clubs; who said anything about restoration?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2002, 06:59:28 PM »
Mike, I agree with you 100% percent, its just a discussuion.

Tom, I suggested dictating to clubs, that was a response for my offering another idea. The idea of historical preservation as is done with buildings. I'm not suggesting I actually believe this is a good idea. I am mearly suggesting the idea as a discussion point. Is the clubhouse at Shinnecock historically designated? Does this mean they potentially have less rights to alter the clubhouse than the course. Again I don't know any of this I'm just asking a question.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2002, 04:14:32 AM »
Fully in agreement with Tom.  

Would it be too much for architects to come together with a list of historical courses.  They are known to us...why not educate the public...raise the bar. It could help focus eye-balls on those taking work on such projects...it surely wouldn't hurt.

In another ethics vein, architect association rules stifle free speech (making some more vulnerable to the rules than others), stifle competition and this can only hurt the investor, golfer and community.  If true as explained below, is this unethical on the organizations part?

Jeff and Ian…your words help prove the point.

Earlier from Jeff:  “Voluntary ethics codes are merely the consensus of practitioners in their respective fields on proper conduct of self and business” and “Artists and designers of all kinds value freedom of design expression just as citizens value freedom of opinion expression.”

Yes, we do value freedom, our basic rights, like free speech, the driving force behind productivity, creativity, industrial upheavals, and the creation of this great nation.  Some don't.  

If the founders didn’t have the guts to speak freely and act heroically, the Union Jack would be flying across the land. We would be a much poorer nation indeed.  Look at Canada and Mexico.  Two large lands with differing degrees of freedom…it was more than geography that made America so great, so fast… in a mere 125 years.  It’s a testament to the great, motivating force of free men boldly creating their future and the foundation for better futures.  It wasn’t luck.  It wasn’t pretty either, and that’s the problem for the architect associations...their rules try to make everything look pretty...but reality, upsurges, forging forward is sometimes messy.  The rules send a distinctive message: conform young bucks, don't rock the boat...stay dry and pretty.

What needs protecting?  Is this industry so fragile?  

What follows are bits taken from four Codes of Ethics, Conduct (ASGCA, ESGA, BIGCA, PGAA).  

Be the judge: are they protectionist, undemocratic, stifling works with a socialist bent (except one surprise)?


UNIVERSAL RULE 2 (Anti-free speech).

ASGCA GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT (2001) RULE 2:
A golf course architect shall not indulge in self-laudatory, exaggerated, misleading or false publicity (ASGCA)

BRITISH INSTITUTE OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTS (BIGCA),
Code of Practice (1998), RULE 2:
Member will avoid…self-laudatory advertisement and maintain the dignity and reputation of the Institute at all times (BIGCA)

EUROPEAN SOCIETY OF GOLF ARCHITECTS (ESGA), CODE OF ETHICS (1998)  RULE 2: The architect shall not … promote himself unduly and shall respect the reputation and interests of his colleagues.  His promotional strategy shall be unobtrusive and shall be of a reputable manner. (ESGA)

It seems all architect associations have rules against honest, revealing, and aggressive speech (could also be defined as self-laudatory) and is an offense equal to “exaggeration, misleading, or false publicity”, or behaving obtrusive, un-reputable and undignified.  

If UNIVERSAL RULE 2 isn’t enough, some code reminds you of your duty to “maintain the dignity and reputation” of the group, or of your obligation to the “reputation and interests of (your future) colleagues”

Is suffocating an individual’s speech to protect the group ethical?  Why not let free speech reign? Let the investor decide what is in his best interests, because in the end he, the investor, is the one who has the most to lose from restricted speech.  

UNIVERSAL RULE 2 (adopted by the ASGCA, BIGCA and ESGA) is censorship without DEFINABLE BOUNDARIES, and any group that need “maintain the dignity and reputation” by restricting free speech...with time... historically ends up with little of either.  

Besides being vague beyond belief, the freedom robbing rules have no relationship to the realities of the business world.  What one finds “self-laudatory” advertisement, another can find valuable factual representation… as Justice John M. Harlan stated in Cohen v. California (1971):

"One man's vulgarity is another's lyric."

How will the architect know he is in violation of censorship rules until it is too late?  To avoid pissing off members, any prospective member need play The Game safely and have his advertising fly deep under the radar of the censors.  These individuals get lost in the mass of like advertising...killing those that change industries.  Universal Rule 2 is an undemocratic protection and advantage.  (Those who gots...gits).

Jeff, this line of yours illustrates my point exactly :

“And, just as you may disagree with what I say, but defend my right to say it”  

Why isn't that good enough for everyone in golf architecture? Your architect group contradicts itself in the ASGCA GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT; RULE 9:

“A golf course architect shall practice in a manner that will support the human rights of all mankind…”

The only problem is UNIVERSAL RULE 2 supercedes the “human rights of mankind.”  


ASGCA CODE OF PROFESSIONAL ETHICS (2001)
 
III. The golf course architect furthers the welfare and advancement of his profession by constantly striving to provide the highest level of professional services.

HOW CAN THIS BE ACCOMPLISHED RESTRICTING FREE SPEECH?

IV. The golf course architect shall serve…with…and shall respond morally and ethically to social political, economic…influences.

FREE SPEECH?

V.  The golf course architect shall avoid unprofessional conduct and shall conform to the Guidelines for Professional Conduct of the (ASGCA).

 “UNPROFESSIONAL” TO SPEAK FREELY (Universal Rule 2).


ESGA CODE OF ETHICS,  RULE 6: (Not found in the ASGCA or BIGCA rules) "…fees shall be negotiated according to the qualifications and experience of the Architect.  The architect shall disclose and calculate his fees in conformance with the official fee structure and shall include and describe all services specified in his contract…”

These guys are price control and the IRS too!  It’s just another arm of the Euro government.

Could you envision this scenario… Ring…Ring…Ring…Hello Dr. Mackenzie, Jim at Architect HQ here…we ahhh…you ahhh…..you haven’t disclosed your fees and haven’t sent us your specs and we would like.them for…ahhhh…our records………………………………………………Dr. Mackenzie ………….Sir we haven’t received your fees and specs……………………Sir are you there …Hello, hello…..Dr.Ma”click”.


BRITISH INSTITUTE OF GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTS (BIGCA),
Code of Practice (1998), RULE 3:  Members shall not…review the work of another member without his permission…

Not found in the ASGCA or ESGA rules, this is a double-whammy, restricting movement and speech.  To move freely would break the code.  

I wonder ifTom Doak called all the architects before visiting and releasing Confidential Guide?  This rule kills such discussion.  

ESGA CODE OF ETHICS (1998) RULE 10:  “All disputes shall be referred to an arbitration panel.  The concerned parties unanimously agree on one or more persons within the association to act as arbitrators.”

ESGA CODE OF ETHICS (1998) RULE 3...He shall…not put himself…in a position that might create a conflict of interest.

Shouldn’t disputes be settled by an independent third party?

Jeff, you seem to agree here:    “Few professionals would go serve on an ethics board to discipline another for so called design transgressions.”  (What about censorship?).

Ian seconds:  ““Few professionals would go serve on an ethics board to disipline another for so called design transgressions."  Jeff, well put.”

PROFESSIONAL GOLFERS ARCHITECTS ASSOCIATION (PGAA Europe)
DOES NOT HAVE ONE freedom robbing, discussion stifling rule!!!  

Restrictions on speech come at a great cost…always have, except for cases of national security.  Suppressing speech could halt the seed of a movement key to halting a bad trend, like the ball, redesigning classics, or a good one like providing better service, striving for “higher standards” as the ASGCA claims to have the utmost interest in.


“(Sundance) was meant to give a voice to people who weren’t able to have one…because the main stream (film industry) which I am certainly a part of…was too focused on what was commercial.”  

We are never too old to learn something.  We can never get too fat and successful not to appreciate that we don’t know everything and sometimes you can learn from babes, so the young people push and challenge us, that’s terrific.

Robert Redford commenting on the film industry.
CNN International, Nov. 9, 2002.

Terrific for the film industry…


There are a couple other rules I left out that are worth discussing…another time.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf architecture and ethics
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2002, 07:03:45 AM »
Guys,
You can rant all you want of the different architectural groups but it doesn't matter.  As I have said before, The American Bar Assoc, ,American Medical Assoc and various other groups carry clout because the are open to all who can pass and receive a license.  Geographic location near a member, competition with a member, a member's opinion of your ethics are not factors of belonging to these groups. Qualifications are the facotr and if they feel there is a question of ethics then it is investigated and both sides are heard.  Cold opinion doesn't carry much weight.(Could you imagine how many lawyers would be in the ABA with subjective rule?)

You must support the right of any subjective group to form and meet.  I assume that the majority of the old classic courses were the confines of subjective memberships.???

There are not enough practicing architects nor is there enough work consistently for a professional board to be required.

The only issue I have is  when these groups "advertise and promote" themselves (self laudatory??) to the public as the industry authority, standard or whatever the proper wording.  All one gains in inclusion is a public perception of membership.

After many discussions with Jeff B I understand the position of these groups much better.  It is a small profession, it is probably over supplied with architects at present and for a long time.  For a group this small it probably is the answer.  As with any system they have made mistakes and will contninue to do so but when I ask myself if an objective test would be the answer I envision a group made up of a lot of white-belt, calculator toting double knit goobs (like the Titleist commercial) running loose with the possiblity of no artistic talent.  But the way it is everyone on this site can be an architect.
JUST DO IT

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"