Golfing Scotland

[Mickey Boland]

Tom,

Reading up on it, it seems that the Hotel at one time tried to create some type of monopoly on tee times, which didn't exactly work out.  Probably what you were faced with.  Apparently only two hours per day are now allocated to Carnoustie Hotel guests.  Ferguson claims it is now the easiest Open "rota" course to get on.  

That is, the easiest to get on, not the easiest course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Apparently only two hours per day are now allocated to Carnoustie Hotel guests.  Ferguson claims it is now the easiest Open "rota" course to get on.  

That is, the easiest to get on, not the easiest course.

Very cool.

It's funny how this all changes over time... back when I first went over in the 80s, Carnoustie was practically paying US to play it.  It was cheap, there was no damn hotel, times were plentiful.  Then it became more famous again and after the 99 Open, boom!  Hotel stay required, etc.  Now it dies down again and although the price remains high, they are more open to visitors.  How do you think it's going to go up closer to and after the 2007 Open?

Other Scottish clubs have followed this changing route also... notably Muirfield....

[Mickey Boland]

Tom,

I slightly modified my reply prior to your reply.  I think you hit it right on the head.  They scooped up most or all of the tee times when it was in demand, and then found that didn't pan out once the '99 Open buzz died down.  You're right, it will probably go through a similar cycle around '07 Open.

I was more interested in the Big Break this time just because I will be playing there next year.  Am not going to spoil it for anybody who hasn't seen it, but I was glad to see who won it.  Seemed like a good story.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mickey - heck you can't blame them for trying.  

And I too was pleased with the Big Break winner - I can sympathize with his feelings at the end of the final match a LOT.

TH

[Doug Siebert]

My apologies - it seems things have changed recently over there - Carnoustie now has on-line booking and it sure doesn't mention staying in the hotel.  When I did this two years ago it was most definitely required to stay at the hotel to play the Championship course.  Consider yourself VERY lucky - that hotel is way way way overpriced.

You sure you aren't thinking of Turnberry?  I played Carnoustie in '91 and '01 and didn't stay there either time, and I've never once heard of such a requirement on that course.  Turnberry, on the other hand, does require it (unless that's changed since 2001)

If there's one town I have no interest in staying in, it would be Carnoustie.  You'd have to throw a dart into a map of Scotland 100 times to hit an uglier place.

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug - Carnoustie absolutely did require hotel stay to play the Championship course when I was there in 2003 - now that has changed, to the good for visitors.  Turnberry's another one that required hotel stay two years ago, apparently doesn't now.  But once again, wait until they host another Open.

If there's anything I'm learning here, it's that the landscape of Scottish golf for visitors is ever-changing.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: I was at Carnoustie in 2003 and you did not need to stay at the hotel. It had changed a year or two earlier, though the hotel still had tee times it could give to guests. I just booked my times through their website that year, and did the same the following year. Just wish I'd played a decent game there either time. That said, I get the feeling the hotel is regularly half empty. We stayed in the Carnoustie Links Hotel across the street and the owner, Joe, was very kind in helping arrange our tee time at the Old Course.
In 2003 you still needed to stay at Turnberry to play the course, though you could find your way out if it wasn't full. As for Gleneagles, we just showed up, paid for a twilight tee time and went and played the Kings.

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert:

Perhaps it was because I had a large group - 12 players.  We most DEFINITELY were required to stay at the hotel to book the Championship course.  I was there July 26-27, 2003.  You think I wanted to pay the premium to stay at that glorified Newark Hilton?  

We also were required to stay at Turnberry.  That seemed to me to be worth it.  Rather fun staying at the famous old place.

We didn't go to Gleneagles - this was a trip for links golf.    When I did play there in 1987, we surely didn't stay at that fantastic-looking hotel - that trip was on the cheap - back then when such things could be done....

In any case, the rules - and rates - do seem to continually change.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: Interesting that a new hotel like the one at Carnoustie is entirely lacking in character. I don't quite understand what they were doing there. My experience at the St. Andrews Bay Hotel was the same.
Personally I'd rather stay in some interesting little hotel with 12 rooms than something that looks like a Hilton in downtown Calgary. I'd assume other golfers are the same -- so why don't they create hotels that have character? Something more like a boutique hotel that would actually be full most of the time.

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert - we are 100% copacetic there.  I was indeed sorely disappointed with the Carnoustie hotel - for exactly the reasons you state.  Oh it was comfortable enough, and the rooms were very nice, as was the bar... it just most definitely could have been transported to Calgary or Newark, NJ or San Jose, CA and the feel and look would have been exactly the same.

They had plenty of great local models to choose from... it's sad they chose what they did.

Now re the golf course... I played it at the end of that trip, playing as well as I really ever have... and it still kicked my butt sideways.  Oh I won my match, but it was a battle of attrition.

 

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: Like you, I appreciated Carnoustie, though I've yet to play well there. Hard to imagine going from shooting 76 on the Old Course and 75 at Kingsbarns, and then not even recording a score at Carnoustie. But that's exactly what happened.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom: Like you, I appreciated Carnoustie, though I've yet to play well there. Hard to imagine going from shooting 76 on the Old Course and 75 at Kingsbarns, and then not even recording a score at Carnoustie. But that's exactly what happened.

Were you following me?  That's damn near exactly how it went for me as well.  It's not called Carnasty for nothing.  

[Mickey Boland]

Well, since the subject has come up, what advice would you like to give me for my first time on Carnoustie next year?  Did you guys play the back tees, or another set?  Watching the Big Break, it didn't seem like the players were having to hit a lot of long irons into greens.  Seemed like the long grass, and of course the bunkers, were the main hazards.  Is wind a bigger factor at Carnoustie than some of the other courses?

[Tom Huckaby]

Mickey - of course things do change, but generally they don't LET visitors play the back tees.  And even if they do, well... this course is hard enough from the up tees.  Jeez only play back if you are a scratch and a masochist.

I do believe those Big Break boys were playing quite up from the Open tees.

In any case, long grass - very penal bunkers - a burn coming into play on at least 4 holes as I recall - highly contoured greens - all of that plus generally strong wind is what makes for the difficulty at Carnoustie.  I believe wind is a bigger factor there only because it's more hazardous to begin with - that is, wind just causes the bunkers/rough/hazards to be found more, and since there are more to begin with, well, wind destroys one more at Carnoustie.

It's a very difficult golf course.  But it also can be very fun.  Just check score expectations at the door.

TH

[ed_getka]

The golfing single thing is interesting over in Scotland. I did my first trip on my own as I didn't want to have to give any consideration to traveling companions. I did want to golf with locals and specifically requested that at every course except TOC, and not once did I get paired up. Every course I went to I played as a single (except North Berwick and Elie where I was joined by a GCA'er). They don't fill out groups in Scotland from a waiting list apparently, or else my trip was an aberration. One possible explanation is that golfing with a local/member is WAY cheaper, and perhaps thats what they thought I was angling for, even though I specifically told them I would be happy to pay the normal fee. Oh well, I had a great trip and wouldn't have changed a thing.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed's example should be taken to heed by all of those romanticizing the solo trip to Scotland - and echoes the warnings I've made in this and other threads.  Yes, it CAN work out well - but you also can end up playing solo most of the time as Ed did - and those who know Ed also know what a very nice, very gregarious guy he is, so this surely wasn't HIM.  Of course this is fine, and Ed's trip was great for him as he says... But my warning all along has been that it's not so easy to assume one will have these glorious times with locals.  Yes it can happen, but as Ed shows, it might not.

So if one is going to go that route, well... just be forewarned and make no assumptions.

TH

[JSlonis]

Mickey,

Regarding Carnoustie...they'll make you play the "regular" set of tees for the day.  This is one of the biggest problems I had with playing Carnoustie on our trip.  First, we had to stay in the Carnoustie Hotel to get a tee time, and secondly, we had to play the course from the daily tee markers, which were probably 6200-6300 yds.   We had a 4 some of two + HCDP's and two 3-4 HDCP's and regardless of showing our HCDP cards, we were relegated to the "up" tees.  I understand that this happens a lot in Scotland, but I still don't have to agree with it.

From the distance we played, I didn't find the course all that difficult, and I would have liked to have had the opportunity to play it from farther back to see what all the fuss is about. The day we played, the course was fairly dry, there wasn't much wind and the rough was not as penal as it probably can be.  Those factors, combined with playing a highly regarded course from such a short yardage, detracted from the round a bit.  It would have been nice to see the full course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Now Jamie - you are the scratch I referred to, although I doubt you are the masochist part as no course need make you so given your skill.  

Would you advise anyone other than a scratch to play that course 1000 yards back?  

Hey, I'm a sometimes-decent 3-6 handicap myself, and well... I played the same tees you did and sure as hell didn't find myself pining away for more distance.  The course beat the shit out of me from those tees.  Perhaps it was because we had a pretty decent wind (2-3 clubs) and the rough was wet and pretty high.  You caught it easy.  

In any case, glad to hear it's not just ME they forced to stay in that hotel - I was beginning to think I was unloved or something.    

[Robert Thompson]

Mickey: it turned out to be the windiest days of my trips both times I've played Carnoustie. I'm not sure if that is typical, but I'll tell you that 15 thru 18 are tough as nails if you are playing into the wind on three of them.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

The day we played, I would bet the conditions were as benign as you could ever imagine.  Part of the "charm" for me of Carnoustie was knowing the course is supposed to be brutal, and getting to challenge myself against the difficulty.  While I'd never compare my game to that of a tour player, I certainly would have liked the challenge of the extra 900-1000 yards that I gazed back on from every tee.  Carnoustie is not supposed to be a "wedge fest", but from 6200 yds, it was.

I agree with you, the average player will have all the challenge they'll ever want from playing the normal tees at Carnoustie...especially if the conditions are tough.

[Robert Thompson]

Jamie: While I might not have been up to the challenge at Carnoustie, I agree that I wish I'd had the opportunity to play further back on a number of the courses we tried. During both my trips I was slightly above scratch, yet at the TOC I had to play a yardage of about 6,400. On my second trip I got fed up with this, especially while playing the short Eden course, and simply walked back to the "member" tees. I got a talking to from the Ranger a couple of times, but oh well.
That's one of the reasons I like Kingsbarns -- you can play the tees you like. It also made Murcar great fun -- as a paying guest, they were quite clear on allowing you to play whatever tees you wanted.
At St. Andrews and Carnoustie, I don't understand why they don't let you play further back if you keep the pace and show a card indicating you have the game. On a course where the ground is firm, 6,800 or 7,000 yards is not unreasonable.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jamie and Robert:  that is understood.  Carnoustie was pretty much a wedgefest for the Big Break boys as well, and they played in generally benign conditions also.  So the lament is against scratches like you being prohibited from playing farther back - I can understand and sympathize for sure.

I just would not counsel very many others to wish for longer distances at Carnoustie, or really many of the other links over there.  The "normal" tees give plenty enough challenge.

 

[Mickey Boland]

Well, I'm neither a scratch golfer nor a masochist, so I will not be looking for the back tees.  But, my group is 5 - 11 handicap range so I think we could take a little more than 6200 yards.  Oh well, just have to see what the fates have in store for us that day.

I live in South Texas, where we get plenty of wind throughout the year, so I'm anxious to get over there and see how my game fares in those conditions.  What I DON'T normally play in is windy, and wet, and chilly.  That part will definitely be different.

[JSlonis]

Mickey,

Regardless of the tees you'll play...your group will have the time of your life!  While I wished I could've seen more of some of the courses, we still had a blast.  I'll never forget as long as I live the incredible feeling I had while standing on the first tee at The Old Course.  If that doesn't send a chill up your spine...you shouldn't be there.

[Mickey Boland]

Jamie,

I know you're right about that.  We're going to have a great time wherever we are.  Looks like we're going to have to ballot for TOC.  We're arriving on a Sunday, and our lodging host in St. Andrews will put us on the ballot on Saturday for Monday's play.  I really hope that when we arrive we will find that we were successful.  Would be a great start to the trip.  But, actually, the trip starts Sunday afternoon with our first Scottish golf experience at Carnoustie.