[ForkaB]

Yes, Andy.  Although it ain't what it used to be (what is?) it's still the funkiest place to stay in Dornoch.  I'll be there for 10 days in July with a party of 30 (and growing), trying to recreate some of the past glories.

[ForkaB]

Sean

I have absolutely no idea, since it's 25+ years since I stayed in a B&B in St. Andrews.  I do hear that the local B&B's are very much into price gouging during the high season, but if you want to take some risk you can show up at some of the pricier hotels late in the day and cut a pretty good deal.

Slainte

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

Andy

Is there a question?

Only suggestion I would make is substitute the Eden for the Jubilee.  And, when you get to the 10th of the Eden, just jump over to the 17th, play back towards the 1st, go around that 1-10 loop as long as you can (and maybe even do 5-8 a few times in the process) . Shouldn't be a real problem in October.  Golf doesn't get much better than that.

Maybe I'm being dim here but the Eden is also preferable to the New?

Robert thanks for the suggestion but as it's my first trip I'm staying in town just to hang out for the few hours we'll be there.

Also how does it work out, do you have to buy two tee times i.e. you pay for TOC and you get a second lesser course thrown in?  Or were you just referring to the amount of time available? I was just planning to turn up at the starter’s box about 7.00am (probably early May) and take it from there.  Hopefully on at least one of the two days then heading off to a second course after refuelling.

[Andy Scanlon]

Andy

Is there a question?

Only suggestion I would make is substitute the Eden for the Jubilee.  And, when you get to the 10th of the Eden, just jump over to the 17th, play back towards the 1st, go around that 1-10 loop as long as you can (and maybe even do 5-8 a few times in the process) . Shouldn't be a real problem in October.  Golf doesn't get much better than that.

Maybe I'm being dim here but the Eden is also preferable to the New?

Robert thanks for the suggestion but as it's my first trip I'm staying in town just to hang out for the few hours we'll be there.

Also how does it work out, do you have to buy two tee times i.e. you pay for TOC and you get a second lesser course thrown in?  Or were you just referring to the amount of time available? I was just planning to turn up at the starter’s box about 7.00am (probably early May) and take it from there.  Hopefully on at least one of the two days then heading off to a second course after refuelling.

Tony:

When I applied for a guaranteed tee time on TOC, I was required to request a tee time on another of the courses at St. Andrews.  I requested the New Course but they gave me the Jubilee.

From the stories I have heard, you should arrive in the singles line much earlier than 7am to have the best chance of a round on TOC.  Of course, others who have acutally done this can chime in to verify if this is true.  Good luck!

[ForkaB]

Andy

Is there a question?

Only suggestion I would make is substitute the Eden for the Jubilee.  And, when you get to the 10th of the Eden, just jump over to the 17th, play back towards the 1st, go around that 1-10 loop as long as you can (and maybe even do 5-8 a few times in the process) . Shouldn't be a real problem in October.  Golf doesn't get much better than that.

Maybe I'm being dim here but the Eden is also preferable to the New?

Robert thanks for the suggestion but as it's my first trip I'm staying in town just to hang out for the few hours we'll be there.

Also how does it work out, do you have to buy two tee times i.e. you pay for TOC and you get a second lesser course thrown in?  Or were you just referring to the amount of time available? I was just planning to turn up at the starter’s box about 7.00am (probably early May) and take it from there.  Hopefully on at least one of the two days then heading off to a second course after refuelling.

Tony

You're no dim (as they say in Scotland)

The New is better, but that's only because it is an 18-hole course while the Eden is 13 (if you can skip out Steel's new holes from 12-16).  The Eden is a more satisfying golfing experience to me, but that's just a matter of taste.  I've not yet been able to succumb to the charms of the Jubilee...

[Mike Hendren]

Two of my prized moments occured on 10/20/03 and 10/22/03 sitting alone on a bench next to the starter's hut in the dark stillness, sipping a cup of coffee and waiting for him to show up.  

Reminded me of this line from W. C. Handy's Memphis Blues:  "I'd rather be here than any place I know."

I'm verklempt.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Rich,

I believe one should play the entire Eden Course.  Steel's pedestrian work is a great juxtaposition to the genius of H. S. Colt.  

A real crime.

Mike

[Michael Hayes]

From the stories I have heard, you should arrive in the singles line much earlier than 7am to have the best chance of a round on TOC.  Of course, others who have acutally done this can chime in to verify if this is true.  Good luck!

Andy, when I was in St. Andrews (Sept 2000) we had the first time of the day for a saturday...As we left the Dunvegan at About 11pm I saw a guy walking with clubs towards the old course...The next morning he was first in line...this is no lie

[Doug Wright]

Speaking of joints to stay in.  Is there  decent place (with at least four twin rooms) in St. Andrews (excluding uni digs) for less than £40 per man in an en-suite twin?

Sean,

Not sure exactly what you mean by all this but you might try:

Vardon House  (Tony Campbell)
22 Murray Park 01334 475787  http://www.standrewsbandbs.co.uk/vardonhouse.htm

Four of us shared the rental flat next to Tony's B&B in October and it was great. Super location a block from TOC. Tell Tony I said hello.

Happy Holidays,

[ForkaB]

Rich,

I believe one should play the entire Eden Course.  Steel's pedestrian work is a great juxtaposition to the genius of H. S. Colt.  

A real crime.

Mike

I agree, Mike, if you want to compare and contrast, but if you can cut in and sneak around Colt's stuff twice it's much more fun.  IMHO, of course.

[JSlonis]

Jim,

I made my first trip to Scotland in Aug. 2003.  We had a group of 4 guys.  Our trip was very ambitious...a lot of golf and a lot of driving.  It was a trip that we weren't sure if we'd ever do again, so we wanted to pack as much as we could into it.  We drove ourselves, which was NO problem at all.  Scotland has the best "signage" you can imagine.  Very difficult to get lost.  Here's a summary of our itinerary:

Day 1:  Arrive Glasgow, travel to N Berwick. Afternoon round at Gullane #1.  Overnight at the Marine Hotel, N Berwick.

Day 2: Gullane #2 in the morning, N. Berwick West Links in the afternoon. Overnight at the Marine Hotel.

Day 3: Travel to Crail. Played Kingsbarns in the afternoon.  Overnight at the Crail Golf Hotel.

Day 4: St Andrew's Old Course in the morning, followed by a round at Crail in the afternoon.  Overnight at the Crail Golf Hotel.

Day 5: Travel to Aberdeen.  Played Royal Aberdeen in the morning, followed by an afternoon round at Cruden Bay.  Traveled to Nairn that evening.  Overnight in Nairn.

Day 6: Travel to Dornoch early morning.  Played 36 holes at Royal Dornoch. Traveled back to Nairn for overnight.

Day 7: Travel to Lossiemouth, played Moray Lossiemouth Links in the morning and traveled to Carnoustie in the afternoon. Overnight at the Carnoustie Hotel.

Day 8: Went down to St Andrew's to do some shopping in the morning, and then played Carnoustie in the afternoon.  Traveled to Glasgow that evening. Overnight at the Glasgow airport Holiday Inn.

Day 9: Flew home....

[Tom Huckaby]

Jamie - that is a LOT of driving but must have been a hell of a lot of fun.  I did a similar trip with two other good friends back in 1987.  The roundabouts took a little getting used to, and getting through Edinburgh was never easy, but in general yes the driving wasn't all that bad.

Now imagine the same trip with a few other good friends, in a luxury motorcoach thing with all you can drink of whatever you want to drink, video screens to watch if you wish, large tables for cards, SOMEONE ELSE doing the driving and telling stories, so that one could say at any post-golf pub as long as one wanted, with no worries about getting to the next destination, etc. etc. etc...

Now tell me which way would be more fun and stress-free.

That's my sole and only point in advocating the bus and driver.  Driving in Scotland is certainly doable and the adventure is neat.  But if you go with a large enough group to make the costs doable, it really is the only way to go.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

I agree.  I think if we had another 4 some with us, it would have been much easier to have a driver.  We logged some serious miles.  Looking back on it, if I were to do another trip of the same duration, I'd plan it differently.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jamie - heck, as I've said many times, there still remains no "wrong" way to do Scotland.  And of course much of how one plans is forced upon one by time allowed, number of people along, other logistical realities.

Re your trip - hell as with mine of the same type, you saw a LOT of great golf courses, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

The key now is to go BACK and do it with less drive time and/or a bus and driver.

 

[Bill_McBride]

It's pretty essential to stay within walking distance of the first tee of the Old Course, because there is absolutely NOTHING in this world cooler than shouldering your bag and strolling down to the starters hut with a tee time in hand.  Absolutely nothing!    Unless it's exhaling after striping that first tee shot...

However, the Crail Golf Hotel looks pretty good too....to paraphrase Huck, everything in Scotland is wonderful!

[Doug Wright]

Andy/Others,

IM me if you want my October 2005 itinerary, accommodations etc. I planned the trip myself (4 of us for 8 days), which was a big part of the fun for me though I know it may be viewed by others as a chore.  

[Sean Walsh]

Tony

Re lining up at TOC.  I was there in August 2003 and was in the line by 5.30.  I was fifth, it was a cold overcast start to the day and I would say that by 6.30am there were 20 people in the line.

The good news is that the whole of the second group for the day didn't turn up so I hit off at 7.10am.  

FYI

[dsilk]

Lads,
there is so much good info here that it is confusing for a simp like me... I, to, am in the early stages of planning a trip to Scotland and I would love to see a post from some of the travel veterans re: their "ideal" trip- criteria being 4 golfers, 7 days and a motorcoach...

thanks to all....

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave - Sean's itin is a good one.  The best idea is to center around a few areas and limit the driving - even with the motorcoach and driver.  There's just no great way to do it and get to the more outlying places like Turnberry/Troon/Prestwick/Western Gailes in the south, or Dornoch in the north, not to mention Machrihanish or Machrie, in such a short time.  For those, you need a few more days.

Remember also that the bus and driver will be VERY expensive with just four guys.  If you can get 8 people to go, well then the bus and driver becomes more worth it.  As it is there's not THAT much travel time involved in Sean's great itin - so you could drive yourself - but that cuts down on the responsible drinking time (at least for one guy) and man selling that short just doesn't seem like fun.  So just do be prepared to pay out the nose for the bus and driver.

In any event, I'd just suggest a few little changes to Sean's very wise itin - most based on practicality and/or logistical realities.

WEDNESDAY: Land at Edinburgh.  Journey toward North Berwick, play Musselburgh Old.  Check into hotel, have a spot of lunch and a 1.5 hour nap afterwards.  The Marine should be very fine once the refurb is done.  If you prefer a smaller town joint there is The Harbour House.  The Glebe House is an excellent B&B with good views.  Play North Berwick late afternoon.  If you don't want to commit to a tee time try Gullane #3, maybe even Dunbar.  
This is all perfect so far!  None of those choices are bad ones, all will be very fun.  Just be careful with expectations about Musselburgh Old - it is VERY VERY VERY old-style golf - very rudimentary - don't play that and think it represents all of Scottish golf - it doesn't, not unless you time-warp back to 1800 or so.  But it is a very neat experience.


THURSDAY: Play Muirfield at 9ish.  Be sure to take your time over lunch. Don't be rushed!  Take your 2.5 hours and soak up the club-lord knows you paid for it!  Play Muirfield again or if you are in your cups, play a late afternoon game at Gullane #3.  Skip dinner, you won't be hungry.  
The key is booking Muirfield - they take visitors on Tuesdays and Thursday only - and book NOW - it's damn near completely full for all of 2006 as I type this.  They have a website - go to that, check out availability.  Or if you use travel company, make sure they plan around this.  Note you pay for 36 and the lunch - there's very little way to get around that - nor should you.  The whole day there is very fun, including the pm "in your cups" foursomes match.

FRIDAY: Play North Berwick at 9ish.  Take a very long lunch at the club and hit the West Links again at 4-5ish.  If you are hungry afterwards eat at the Chinese joint in town.  
Hmmmm... Gullane #1 is pulling mightily, and it's like 10 minutes away at most... I'd advocate that in the pm, especially if you played N. Berwick already on Wednesday.  As great as it is, it doesn't warrant 3 rounds in this short itin.  And Gullane #1 is great also.  One thing's for sure, don't sell short the time spent in the N. Berwick clubhouse.  You might even want to go back there after golf at Gullane....

SATURDAY: Drive to St. Andrews and play TOC before looking at any other course.  Spend the rest of the day kicking around St. Andrews.  Stay at The North Street Inn.
Unfortunately the realities of booking TOC mean you have to book - and pay for - another St. Andrews course as well.  There's nothing wrong with this - but at times it's difficult to get that morning time at TOC.  A golf travel company can help with this.  What Sean describes is the perfect way to handle it, but remember you will have paid for a round at the New or Eden or Jubilee... to me it's tough to leave paid for golf on the table.  There will be time to kick around St. Andrews in between rounds or in the evening...

SUNDAY: Play Kingsbarns at 8ish.  Take a very long lunch.  Play Crail at 4ish.  
perfecto!  

MONDAY: Play Elie at 8ish.  Eat a hearth lunch at the club then head to town to look around a bit more.  Play whatever Links Trust course is available at 5ish.
At this point I'm going to differ from Sean.  There's another great course that we've all seen on TV - especially if you watch The Golf Channel at all - and it's lure is powerful - CARNOUSTIE.  So I'd say play Elie in AM, eat and drink at the club, poke around town, then head to Carnoustie and check in at hotel there (you have to stay there to play there).  Play one of the Carnoustie courses if you are golf addicted, otherwise rest up for the next day.

TUESDAY: Play TOC at 10ish.  Eat lunch and head for the airport.  
On would that it were so easy to plan rounds at TOC!  Thus another reason to differ from Sean.  Play Carnoustie Championship in AM - lick your wounds - have lunch, head to airport.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I really thought overseas visitors could arrange only the full day at Muirfield - that is, that a la carte wasn't offered.  Things may indeed have changed - I know I surely did exactly that in 1987 (played one round only then left), but then in 2003 we were offered ONLY the full day.  Perhaps it was because we were a large group.  In any case, I'd still highly recommend the whole day, it is a hell of a lot of fun - to me one of those golf experiences that ought not to be missed.

And it's only money.    

Re Carnoustie, well... I go back and forth on it.  I just do think that particularly for Americans, it's not to be missed... not now... not after the Van de Velde destruction Open, and the recently-completed "Big Break IV" season on The Golf Channel, all of which was filmed there.  It's one of those courses that particularly an American would regret if he DOESN'T play while over there.  This makes no comment on its overall quality, or how it compares to others... it just does need to be played.

Getting on TOC remains quite problematic - especially in higher seasons, especially for a fourball that wants to stick together.  One can't just blithely assume a morning time....

Oh well.  As I said, your itin is a very good one.  I just like it better with my tweaks, some of which are concessions to reality, some of which are catering to an American visitor, which Dave would be.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Ask that question of American golfers aged 16-60, see how many don't know.  Hell I don't even watch it that much but I know what it is.

I'd bet anything Silk knows what it is - and if he doesn't, well his friends will know about it.

But even if they are the exceedingly rare golf nuts who aren't aware of it, well they sure as hell know what happened to Van de Velde.

And that alone makes Carnoustie a must-play.

TH

[Mickey Boland]

Tom,

Re: reply #76.  You don't really mean that you have to stay at the hotel at Carnoustie to play there, do you?  I've got a confirmed time on the championship course next summer and am definitely not staying at the hotel.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Re: reply #76.  You don't really mean that you have to stay at the hotel at Carnoustie to play there, do you?  I've got a confirmed time on the championship course next summer and am definitely not staying at the hotel.

My apologies - it seems things have changed recently over there - Carnoustie now has on-line booking and it sure doesn't mention staying in the hotel.  When I did this two years ago it was most definitely required to stay at the hotel to play the Championship course.  Consider yourself VERY lucky - that hotel is way way way overpriced.

So change the itin to drive to Carnoustie, stay somewhere other than that hotel.  It is overpriced for sure, and not worth it, and there are other options.  But play there for sure.

And Kyle, no, "The Big Break IV" is a show about unsung pro golfers competing for a chance to play in higher-level events - in this case two European Tour events.  It's produced by The Golf Channel here in the States.  This last one pitted a team of Americans against a team of Euros - they get eliminated one by one until the final is a head to head match.

TH

[dsilk]

thanks to you all- TH, Sean, Doug etc...

great info and since it is almost 50 today in Boston- It feels like Scotland- So many courses, so little time... and yes, I do know big break iv, in fact T.J.'s home course Pinehills is about 15 minutes away...
now if I could just cop a lesson with stephanie...

[Tom Huckaby]

thanks to you all- TH, Sean, Doug etc...

great info and since it is almost 50 today in Boston- It feels like Scotland- So many courses, so little time... and yes, I do know big break iv, in fact T.J.'s home course Pinehills is about 15 minutes away...
now if I could just cop a lesson with stephanie...

 
Yes, some private time with her would be VERY nice.

Re Scotland, man it is fun to dream about....

TH

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