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ForkaB

Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2002, 09:54:52 AM »
Mr. Richardson

You are getting annoyingly close to hard truths with your Sophilcean sophistry.  What is "routing" indeed?

A Doyen once told me that the routing at a highly rated new course was great because the architect could write it out in a minute or so on a cocktail napkin.   I wanted to say, like Lazarus in Prufrock, "That is not what I meant at all; that is not it, at all."

You ask about flat surfaced routings, and I think of Stevinson Ranch and the potato patch part of Friar's Head, and all I can really think about is the fact that the architects on these pieces of land managed to build some really interesting golf holes on top of medicority.  Yes, they link together nicely, but is it really the "routing" that makes a difference or the holes themselves.  Or, is the "routing" just a way of saying "finding the best holes that also link together?"  I am still learning and not sure.

Haven't you written a book on this subject?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2002, 10:17:31 AM »
Ahhh, routing then is the linking of holes together in sequence, bad sequence, interesting combinations, patterns, lack of patterns, changes in direction, or not, pace, lack of interest, heightened interest, weirdness, blandness, spectacle, alongside natural points, away from natural points, close to forests, through forests, above forests, (by Forrest), over stuff, onto, beside, below, and toward things. Right? I suspect it is even aligning a hole along a barbed wire fence in the southwest desert of the U.S.

Yes, I did write a book on the subject, which has only made me more interested in how others view this essential part of GCA. So far I'm impressed with about half of the points expressed in this discussion, and a few of those have been mine.

I think there are very, very few sites where one can say, "All we need to do is find the holes and all will live happily ever after." Fact is, some of the routings we hold dear are very likely luck or perhaps the very lack of any real keen knowledge of the "finer points" of routing in the first place. Some "great" routings just happened because a few holes got set and the rest had to connect them. The result of course prompts such comments as "...isn't it exceptional the way the course brings you to the edge and then away and then back...simply remarkable."

Again, Desmond Muirhead comments how it is nearly impossible to get 18-holes in your mind at one time. Juts like the analogy of the building -- we do not think of all of the hallways and spaces of a building at once because we do not experience them this way. We think only of the building as a whole by its general feel and design. To think of each space would overload our brain.

But to route -- the architect must put these spaces together in his/her mind all at once and with tremendous regard for one another and the eventual experience it will yield.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tim Weiman

Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2002, 10:31:48 AM »
Jeff Brauer:

I once advised a young American computer programmer headed to Paris to join a multinational project team to be very careful about language. Though the project was based in Paris, the team was expected to conduct business in English. But, I told this fellow to be careful because when people are speaking in a second language, the same word can have very different meanings.

Maybe we have fallen victim to the same thing here!

So, I want to make clear that I am not commenting on the value or wisdom of relying on "micro movement" when designing a golf course.

Instead, I am simply advising Tommy that if he wants to claim the strong point of Talking Stick's routing is the use of "micro movement", he will need to provide far more details for people to "get it".

At the end of the day, Tommy may or may not make his case. He just has more work to do.

Which again is why I think routing discussions aren't easy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steven Fairbanks

Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2002, 10:37:36 AM »
Forrest
What is the best routing you have ever done? Why is it such a good routing?

steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2002, 11:05:30 AM »
Steve -- The Hideout Golf Club, Utah. It takes advantage of the natural features, yet does so by jumping from one valley to another across a threshold ridge. It does this twice, with Nos. 4 and 16 providing the conduit through which the golfer makes this change in location. It also leaps into a hidden canyon where all the other holes are left behind for about 30 minutes. And, it does this from a meadowland area where the opening and finishing holes originate together with the practice area.

Thanks for asking. I would have done nothing different at the Hideout, which I cannot say about virtually all the other projects I've completed or been involved with.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #105 on: March 30, 2014, 05:11:49 PM »
Since we were discussing routing on the DR thread, I did a little searching and came up with this old thread that has some really great insights to routing.  Hope you find it interesting.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #106 on: March 30, 2014, 05:31:33 PM »
What does a round at Pacific Dunes cost now? If I remember right it, it was around $125.00, but I'm sure it has to be going up.

Don't quote me on this, but I think the cost to build it was around 1.5-2 Mil. It is a world class course built minimally and is rated #2 on the Golfweek America's Best Modern List.

I quoted him on it, because he was wrong, and I hadn't noticed until someone brought this back to the top of the board.

I still don't think it's easy to discuss routing in a general context.  It's all specific.  Making up rules hinders the process, and dumbs it down to a level where more people may understand, but lesser courses will result.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #107 on: March 30, 2014, 05:44:06 PM »
What does a round at Pacific Dunes cost now? If I remember right it, it was around $125.00, but I'm sure it has to be going up.

Don't quote me on this, but I think the cost to build it was around 1.5-2 Mil. It is a world class course built minimally and is rated #2 on the Golfweek America's Best Modern List.

I quoted him on it, because he was wrong, and I hadn't noticed until someone brought this back to the top of the board.

I still don't think it's easy to discuss routing in a general context.  It's all specific.  Making up rules hinders the process, and dumbs it down to a level where more people may understand, but lesser courses will result.



Tom,

I am glad Dan bumped up this thread. Feels funny to read something written more than ten years ago, but it looks like neither one of us changed our views since 2002.

No way around it. Routing is a site specific discussion.
Tim Weiman

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #108 on: March 30, 2014, 05:45:48 PM »
good discussion from 10+ years ago

Tom Doak was listed as guest? edit//and Tim Weiman

good stuff, thank you
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 05:55:12 PM by William_G »
It's all about the golf!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2014, 06:10:36 PM »
Wow. The tone and content of this old routing thread is dramatically different than our attempt to have the same discussion pertaining to Dismal River.

Are we regressing?
Tim Weiman

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2014, 06:18:14 PM »
Wow. The tone and content of this old routing thread is dramatically different than our attempt to have the same discussion pertaining to Dismal River.

Are we regressing?

Tim, I noted the same thing - certainly a different form of discourse then versus now and we certainly live in a different world today with many new factors that probably influence our discussions here.

But to try to be fair, I think the Dismal River thread(s) started in a much different place and in all honesty, there are probably some underlying issues that moved that thread in an unfortunate direction...

With that said, it was great to scroll through this thread and see the thoughtful input and replies...
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:46:17 PM by Chris_Hufnagel »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #111 on: March 30, 2014, 06:36:02 PM »
Chris H:

Thanks. The thread had an interesting collection of participants, several who  are longer here.
Tim Weiman

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can We Discuss Routing?
« Reply #112 on: March 30, 2014, 11:52:46 PM »

The tone and content of this old routing thread is dramatically different than our attempt to have the same discussion pertaining to Dismal River.

Maybe because back then there was no DR-type course, near completion, to focus so many opinions.  So everyone could stay more removed or'objective' or distant from the topic.