too many PGA's at Whistling Straits?!?!

[PThomas]

let's see, it was there last year, it's there in 2010, and again in 2015...

proved to be a great tournament last year, seemed to truly test the players, and a non-fluker won, but...

I still think that's too many PGAs at the same place in too short a time frame:  3 in 12 years!

agree?

[Andy Troeger]

I think that the conditions vary enough with the wind (and lack thereof it seemed the first couple of rounds last year) that its reasonable. Like you said the first go-around went well and I'm looking forward to the 2nd one.

I was about to make a crack about it being better than Valhalla for immediate repeat visits...but then from what I remember the last PGA there ended up being pretty interesting in itself

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes.

I'm not a huge fan of the course, which may account for my reticence to see such frequent returns.  Personally, I'd much rather see them at The Ocean Course at Kiawah.

However, even The Old Course only gets The Open once every five years!  

[PThomas]

I like W Straits, but it's just too many times in way too short a time

[Anthony_Nysse]

Paul,
  What is your stance on The Masters being at ANGC? Or any other tour event for that matter? Those certain courses are played EVERY year.
  As for Whistling,  the pro's loved it, it proved to be more than worthy, wasn't tricked up (like Augusta CAN be) and I think that it's a better course than The Ocean Course. If memory serves me right, the wind didn't blow like it usually does, therefore, did the pros really see WS? I think that part of the apeal is that's it's not like many course in America-A lot of PGA Championship courses are parkland style-Baltusrol, Oak Hill, Hazeltine, and Salhalee.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[John Nixon]

I agree that conditions there seem to be so variable that it's unlikely to play the same two tournaments in a row. Not to mention whatever tweaking the powers-that-be might decide to do between championships. I don't think we saw but a small % of what that course can throw at the players over the four days of last year's PGA.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's the PGA..who the hell cares.

[Phil_the_Author]

I agree as well, it's time to bring the PGA to great unknown courses such as Valhalla... oh wait...

[PThomas]

Tony - The Masters and regular tour events are different beasts

the other three majors have typically been rotated around the country to different sites...I think this takes the tournaments to different audiences and can help grow the game

and John :  be nice to the PGA, after all , it IS a major!

[Jason Blasberg]

It's the PGA..who the hell cares.

Agreed!  

Not that I don't care about the tourney, or how hard it is to win being a major, or, MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE PGA OF AMERICA participation that makes it special in a way similar to amateurs competing in any USGA or R&A open event . . . but the PGA, of all the majors, seems to place the least amount of emphasis on quality of GCA when it comes priorities.  

For that matter I'd rank the majors in perceived order of GCA importance as follows:  The Open Championship, The US Open, The Masters, The PGA Championship . . .

any takers?

 

[Tim Bert]

I enjoyed he course, but I'm a little surprised by the number of times they locked it up already.  Seems like they got a little over-excited about the venue and at the same time got worried that the USGA was going to barge in.

Didn't they already sign up for a Ryder Cup here too?

[Phil_the_Author]

Nick,

Lest anyone else misunderstand my bit of humor, no, I have never played Valhalla, though I certainly would love to if given the opportunity.

How could anyone not like it, nor recognize that it was the site of probably the greatest PGA Championship in modern times?

This thread is about the PGA rather than course, at least that is my take on it. Valhalla has proven to be a wonderful venue for the championship. The question raised is actually how many is too many PGA Championships contested at a single venue in how short a time period. We seem to have forgotten thatthere was much criticism when Valhalla was picked to host it again in so short a time, and yet if it hadn't been chosen, look what we would have missed.

What is most important is the Championship itself, how it is contested and whether the victor proves worthy to stand alongside the other victors of the same title.

Would I love to see other venues host the majors? Most definitely yes! Does it define a course's greatness because it has majors played on it, for me, no.

So when can we play Valhalla together?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

It's the PGA..who the hell cares.

Agreed!  

Not that I don't care about the tourney, or how hard it is to win being a major, or, MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE PGA OF AMERICA participation that makes it special in a way similar to amateurs competing in any USGA or R&A open event . . . but the PGA, of all the majors, seems to place the least amount of emphasis on quality of GCA when it comes priorities.  

Jason-

  When you say "...least amount of emphasis on quality of GCA...", are you referring to the PGA's history of holding the Championship at venues such as, say, Oak Tree, Shoal Creek, Sahalee, Valhalla, Atlanta AC, places that are not "classic courses" in the sense of traditional US Open-hosting courses/clubs, for example, Merion (up until/including 1981), Oakland Hills, Baltusrol (up until recently), Winged Foot (exception: 1997), just to name a few.  

  In some ways, it's evident that the PGA understands that their Championship lacks some of the prestige afforded to the other majors because of that.  In fact, what Tim Bert said below your post is exactly spot on, whether anyone in the PGA offices will admit to it or not; and I recall reading an interview with David Fay where he said words to the effect of "I commend the PGA for such nimble decision-making", in reference to finding a venue such as Whistling Straits, and, in effect, 'locking it up' from access by the USGA for a number of years by awarding it several Championships (and I think a Ryder Cup, as well), after last year's successful event.  I think both Fay and the PGA president (MG Orender? I may be wrong) have both said that they feel the need to search for viable, newer venues to host both Championships.  

  However, I think, as I started to say above, the PGA realises they don't play the "classic courses" enough, and make an attempt to.  Obviously, there's competition between both organizations for the same basic pool of courses.  

  To their credit, it appears that the PGA has tried, and succeeded, at least from what I have read, in creating a "fair but difficult" test of golf, whereas the USGA has their own agendas we all know, with the results we have heard more than enough of.  
 

[Troy Alderson]

Tim,

It is my understanding that the US Open is typically played at older classic golf courses.  Correct me if I am wrong on that.  I do not think the USGA looks at the newer courses for the Open.  Much like the R&A is played on certain older courses in a rotation of sorts.  Whistling Straits will never see the US Open IMHO.  Though I am not a fan of the PGA Championship, the tournament is the best bet Americans have at seeing a major played on newer great golf courses that may even exemplify GCA ideals.

Troy

[Doug Braunsdorf]

This thread is about the PGA rather than course, at least that is my take on it. Valhalla has proven to be a wonderful venue for the championship.

Phil-

  Why would you say "...Valhalla has proven to be a wonderful venue for the championship..."?  Was it because of the final-round fireworks, edge-of-seat playoff, and eventual winner?  

  Put another way, if Shaun Micheel or Ben Curtis had won at Valhalla, would you lavish the same praise on it?  

 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tim,

It is my understanding that the US Open is typically played at older classic golf courses.  Correct me if I am wrong on that.  I do not think the USGA looks at the newer courses for the Open.  Much like the R&A is played on certain older courses in a rotation of sorts.  Whistling Straits will never see the US Open IMHO.  Though I am not a fan of the PGA Championship, the tournament is the best bet Americans have at seeing a major played on newer great golf courses that may even exemplify GCA ideals.

Troy

Troy-

  See my post above.  I seem to remember an interview with David Fay where he talked about looking at newer venues for the US Open, and alluded to Whistling Straits, and went further to say that the PGA was "nimble" in handing it several Championships within a short span of time, in effect shutting out the USGA from hosting a US Open Championship there.  

I think the interview was in Golf Digest or Golf Magazine from fall of last year or early this year.  

[Eric_Dorsey]

I personally love Whistling Straits.  I'm designing it for a video game and it's next to impossible     I know it's fairly contrived, but still, some of the holes just blow me away.  I have played Blackwolf Run and really liked it, so I'd love to go back and play WS.

On the other hand, I'm going to have to agree.  With so many great courses coming out - why not bring the PGA to some of them?  There on sort of a roll with 2 very successful events @ WS and Baltusrol, they should keep up the momentum with throwing in different courses in the mix - I think the players and fans get juiced up for new stuff.

Just because the course is in a remote location, don't think people won't come - cripes, look at Whistling Straits!  Bandon/Pacific Dunes maybe, Sand Hills would be awesome, Dallas National, or maybe Harding Park would be alright.  I'm sure there's alot more I'm not thinking of.

[Tim Bert]

From their web site:

"Whistling Straits—host of the 2004 PGA Championship, 2007 U.S. Senior Open, 2010 PGA Championship, 2015 PGA Championship and 2020 Ryder Cup"

I forgot that the USGA had already lined up a championship there as well.

I'm a little surprised everyone is lining up events so quickly there.  No knock on the course at all - as I said, I enjoyed it; just seems like an awful lot of action concentrated on one pretty new course.

[Jason Blasberg]

It's the PGA..who the hell cares.

Jason-

  When you say "...least amount of emphasis on quality of GCA...", are you referring to the PGA's history of holding the Championship at venues such as, say, Oak Tree, Shoal Creek, Sahalee, Valhalla, Atlanta AC, places that are not "classic courses" in the sense of traditional US Open-hosting courses/clubs . . .

Doug:

I mean that the PGA seems to hover around a place or two, for a while, then split, what's up with Valhalla, btw?  How can you be so hot and cold, how many championships are at WS now?  What the heck happened to the Ocean Course?  These guys have no clue what the hell they are doing from a long term course and championship perspective.  I imagine that's why they change venues so often and also why they cling to one for several repeat visits when they think it works . . . they react instead of plan.

Lastly, Doug, I find it odd that a guy from Jersey uses the phrase "spot on."  What's up with that?  

   

[Jason Blasberg]

Doug:

For the record the PGA is not alone in the get a clue category . . . the USGA proved worthy of that title at Shinnecock in '04 where they literally lost control of the course, leaving only the R&A to hold the all time modern bag of crap with the set up at Carnoustie in what was almost the Year of the Frog . . . .  

Set up can forever impact a championship too, even when contested on the most heralded links . . .  

[Phil_the_Author]

Doug,

You asked, "Why would you say "...Valhalla has proven to be a wonderful venue for the championship..."?  Was it because of the final-round fireworks, edge-of-seat playoff, and eventual winner? Put another way, if Shaun Micheel or Ben Curtis had won at Valhalla, would you lavish the same praise on it?"

Are you implying that because their names don't end in Woods that they somehow are not deserving to be victors of major championships? Of course you don't, I know that.

My answer to your question is a resounding YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was the means of victory, the final round battle nearly equal to Watson/Nicklaus, followed by the incredible playoff that made it actually and truly and really and any other adjective/adverb ending in "LY" to be followed by "one for the ages."

[Steve Lapper]

You guys are all missing the "essence" of this question (except perhaps for John Kavanaugh as I couldn't agree more with his assessment).

THE REAL REASON WHISTLING STRAIGHTS IS GETTING SO MANY PGA EVENTS:   $$$$$$$    duh!

Nowhere else in the US has a new course owner be able, to date*, make the kind of monetary promises & concessions to the PGA necessary to win this appointment. Once the pros came, played, and loved the course, Herb Kohler was quick (and smart enough) to go in and cut a multi-year deal (and get the Ryder Cup to boot. He doesn't need the $$ that an older venue may seek to offset operating costs, nor does he worry about the size of his profit. Instead, he can cut a very pro-PGA favorable deal on rev-sharing and lower site fee.

It's all about the $$$, period.

*This is why Donald "foot wedge" Trump is actively seeking first a PGA event, then the PGA Championship at his course(s).
Just ask Vostinak, Cirba, et.al. ...(they are looking forward to playing as markers )

BTW.....The USGA, acutely aware of the WS dates, is soooo near annointing the yet to be opened, Erin Hills as the next addition to the Open rota.....don't be surprised when this venue gets one in early 2020's.

[John Kavanaugh]

I love Valhalla and think the course has earned its championships on its own merits, but...The PGA owns Valhalla...they actually bought the course from the owner/members...not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

It's the PGA..who the hell cares.

Lastly, Doug, I find it odd that a guy from Jersey uses the phrase "spot on."  What's up with that?  

"Spot on"?  From re-reading the post after a good night's sleep, I suppose I could have used any number of phrases in its place.  In the grand scheme of things, it's not important.  It doesn't detract from the point I was trying to make, that being that the PGA was trying to keep the USGA from barging in.  

Steve L. is correct also--yeah, money is the motivating factor--see the selection of the K Club as a Ryder Cup venue.  Tournament golf is a business, what else can you say?  

[Jason Blasberg]

Doug:

I understand, and thought your point made sense, just a little leg pulling there.