Kidnappers 15th falling into the sea!

[Scott Coan]

Well, not exactly...

Had the pleasure of a couple of games at Kidnappers this past weekend and thought the side of the cliff on 15 looked a bit different while checking it out from the 13th.  When I got over there I found out why.  A GUR area of about 50 square meters had been resodded about 200 yards out from the green, taking up the entire left half of the fairway.  The first day I thought they had just dug it up to put in more drainage, but on the second day I took the time to walk over to the cliff edge of the GUR area and peered down.  A huge slip had taken this section of cliff straight down to the valley below.  Whereas before there was about a 75 degree angle down there is now an angle more like 89 degrees.  It is very frightening to look over the edge to say the least.  Did not get the chance to confirm with the staff but the slip must have caused this area of the fairway to slip as well so they probably had to fill and re-sod.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the future.

[Scott Coan]

Way over on the right side of this picture is where the earth has fallen away.  



This was taken looking down from the greensite.  The slip is about 200 yards back



Imagine what this hole would look like with a big slip in the middle of it!

[RJ_Daley]

It seems like this is a comparable slough or land break on a seaside cliff similar to the course formerly known as Ocean Trails.  Let's face it, siting a course at the edge of a precipace is going to always run that risk.  One only needs to look at the recent 100 year history of the geology of such land to understand that.  

I wonder if Half Moon Bay won't eventually suffer similar fate, along with Torrey Pines.  I know of another course that has suffered sloughing off of land, but haven't heard any updates on progress rectifying that one, but assume they have taken measures to fix recent cracking.

Maybe Tom Doak can come on here and tell us how much of a consideration the issue was in the pre-construction planning stage.  Did they make a risk assessment, and determine the risk of it happening was worth the result they could achieve with the design as it was built?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Great pictures of easily the hardest par 5 in a wind I have ever played.  Jesus Christ but this 'Hilter with a hangover' (Lewis Grizzard quote) looks fairly benign from the nice photos above.  Don't be fooled!!!

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

I wish I could tell more clearly from your photos what is going on.  The first view just looks like it has highlighted the greenside bunker we built.  Strangely enough, I have not heard anything from the superintendent or the client in New Zealand about it yet, so hopefully it is not as desperate a situation as it looked to you.

Certainly, there is a potential for slippage on that hole, given the geology of the region [not to mention the history of earthquakes!].  We did have a geologist out there to look at the course, but he could not really provide any firm assessments about that hole.  I did have some reservations about going out onto the point with the fifteenth, which is only 40 yards wide for most of its length, but the client loved the idea and wanted us to proceed, despite the risk that someday a major slippage could force the hole to be rerouted.

I agreed with that sentiment.  Even if the hole only lasts for twenty or even ten years, everyone who has played it will remember it, and if it has to be changed later, this is a client who can afford it.  (We had much the same discussion about putting the fourth green at Pacific Dunes so close to the cliff edge ... does anyone wish I'd put a 30-foot rumble strip of rough there and waited for nature to bring the cliff closer to the green?)

We are looking at a property right now with vast areas [50-100 acre swaths] of shifting sand dunes, trying to decide how close we should route our course to these hazards.  Some would say we shouldn't build there at all, and if you believe that what you build has to last 100 years, they might be right.  But then you'll never ever play a course with holes alongside great shifting dunes.  I may take that chance.

[Gene Greco]

First time lurking on GCA that I got vertigo.

[Jason Blasberg]

First time lurking on GCA that I got vertigo.

Gene:

671 posts is lurking?  

[Scott Coan]

Tom,

These are some old photos from about 6 months ago and are the closest I've got to the general area.  Left the camera at home this time as decided that taking pictures and playing good golf is not a good mix for me.

Once the new sod takes hold there will be no evidence that anything occurred unless you have a peek over the fence.  Then you backtrack pretty fast because it is really creepy looking 500 feet straight down with a single wire fence holding you back!

Quite a bit of earth must have slipped as the canyon floor is now full of the mud that was taken down.  I wish I'd asked the staff what the impact to the fairway was.  The only thing I can think of is that it depressed slightly and they wanted to return it that airport runway type of feeling it presents.

An awesome golf hole and one that absolutely had to be built.  If some fairway falls away then the world's hardest par5 second shot will just become a little more difficult!