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Lou_Duran

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Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« on: December 13, 2005, 03:01:54 PM »
I just received an email from Rock Bottom Golf promoting a $19.99 (twenty bucks) Wilson Killer Whale Titanium Driver with a light graphite shaft.  New Wilson "Smart Core" balls are going for 75 cents each, and brand name golf shoes for $30.  Buy $75 worth of stuff and shipping is free (no sales tax for most of the country).

On eBay, a set of nearly new Cleveland TA7 Tour irons is avaiable for a minimum bid of $200.

There is a very good 7,000+ yard daily fee golf course, Raven Nest, in Huntsville, TX (just north of Houston) that can be joined for 5 years for a total of $5,000.  This includes all green fees, advance tee times, riding cart, and range balls. They'll even finance the $5,000 over five years!  Play 100 rounds per year at a cost of $10 per round, including cart!

In comparison, I just came back from the dentist where it cost me $2,750 to cap three teeth.  This weekend, my 14-year old car had to have the heater/AC fan motor fixed and that cost $300, a $200+ savings from having to replace it.  The property taxes, $7,000+, on my modest home and condo are currently due.  My daughter's auto insurance is $2,000 annually.  Our health insurance was $1300 per month.

For $17 I can go play either of the very nice Bear Creek courses after 1:00 at the DFW airport.  And who says golf is expensive?   The guy in NYC who pays rent of $3,000/month and $40 to $50 for a round at Bethpage Black?  

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2005, 03:09:16 PM »
Lou,
The answer is still "Yes, golf is expensive..." because, unlike each of the other items you mention, golf is totally discretionary spending.  As discretionary spending goes, golf runs into money pretty quickly if you are serious about it, assuming good equipment and regular play.

However, I am somewhat encouraged by the price structure that seems to be evolving.  Clubs in my area seem to be competing harder for membership, and more deals are available at daily fee courses as well.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Garland Bayley

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2005, 03:17:47 PM »
A soccer ball and a pair of boots $50. Public park with soccer field. $0

Tennis racket and a pair of sneakers $50. Public park with tennis cours. $0

Yes golf really is that expensive in relative terms.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2005, 03:23:22 PM »
Lou,
It is a real strength of our sport that each person can find his or hers own level of expenditure. Be it greens fees, clubs on ebay, or the balls purchased, I have a choice and one of them is frugality.

You are correct that a person with the motivation to lower thier costs, can still find a game. A game, I might add, that is marginally less enjoyable, but is significantly less expensive.*

*See Rick Reilly's "Missing Links"
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 03:25:24 PM by Adam Clayman »

Brent Hutto

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2005, 03:25:14 PM »
Speaking only for my own experience (i.e. living in a place with plenty of golf courses and generally lower golf costs than some places) I'd say golf does not have to be an expensive recreation. However, it easily admits almost arbitrarily large expeditures and to a great extent it returns additional enjoyment for the extra money.

You can buy a few hundred dollars worth of equipment, take a handful of group-clinic lessons pretty cheaply to learn the fundamentals and (around here at least) for under $1,000/year play all the golf you want to at a pretty decent semi-private course. That's 5, 10 or more hours per week of fun with a healthy physical activity component for not a whole lot of money.

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2005, 03:31:18 PM »
Brent,
As always, your figures are dead on.  However, $1000 a year, which is rock-bottom, is probably still a lot more than the rock-bottom figure for virtually any other sport an adult might play recreationally.  Golf only becomes "inexpensive" when you compare it to housing, transportation, etc.

Jogging?
Softball?
Tennis?
Bowling?
Ping-Pong?

What am I leaving out?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mike Hendren

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2005, 03:31:57 PM »
Interesting take, Lou.

When I started my banking career in Big D in 1983 I recall paying $315/month for my furnished efficiency in The Village.  We played "daylight to dark at Tennison Park" becuase we refused to cough up the $35 +/- to play Bear Creek.

A.G., in fairness to Lou dental work is considered discretionary where I come from.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2005, 03:50:41 PM »


A.G., in fairness to Lou dental work is considered discretionary where I come from.

Mike

Outstanding!  (Remember, I'm in Georgia)

I know you know the joke about how we know the toothbrush was invented in Alabama.  Anywhere else and it would have the teethbrush.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2005, 03:54:45 PM »
Lou, have you taken up hockey? Or do you need a diet change. Say what you want about GSW, but the cheeseburgers never chipped a tooth for me! ;)

I think its right to compare to spending in similar recreational sports.

Probably cheaper than skiing 100 days a year, even if you live in Denver and can get a season pass, after considering drive time, ski rental or purchase, etc.  Ditto with those adult hockey leagues Lou has apparently signed up for.

Probably more expensive than bowling, biking, basketball leagues, walking, jogging, or joining the local rec center or Y.  On the other hand, probably a lot more fun, too!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2005, 06:33:01 PM »
Lou:

Let me relate the Jersey side of golf and its associated costs.

People can play muni golf and will pay green fees from the $10 to $25 amount per round. Given the costs in going to a movie -- usually a bad one -- or other related entertainment options the golf side is still reasonable.

I have to say that if such golfers wish to play better golf courses they have that option in the Garden State and those costs are indeed expensive and in some cases prohibitive. Green fees in the range of $75-$95 is more than likely the sum you'll be playing.

No doubt the better golf courses are the CCFAD variety as many of the muni ones are primarily functional at best.

In sum -- it's up to the individual person to decide the level of costs they wish to handle.

Brent Hutto

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2005, 06:40:07 PM »
Jogging?

Not a "sport" in quite the same sense as golf.

Softball?

Ah, subsidized playing fields make the cost hidden.

Tennis?

If your playing field isn't subsidized it can quickly get expensive, although probably still less than golf.

Bowling?

Per hour of play probably can't be done as cheaply as golf.

Ping-Pong?

Cheaper for sure.

There's also basketball which can be pretty cheap if you use subsidized courts somewhere.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2005, 07:57:16 PM »
Lou,
I have always taken the position that golf is relatively inexpensive but you do need a certain level of income to call it so.  

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2005, 08:16:15 PM »

Probably cheaper than skiing 100 days a year, even if you live in Denver and can get a season pass, after considering drive time, ski rental or purchase, etc.  

For $1,700, anyone in the country can buy a season pass that gives unlimited skiing access to Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone and Arapahoe Basin—some of the greatest mountains in the world.

Add $2,000 every 5 years for new, top-of-the-line equipment and even with the travel skiing looks dirt cheap compared to golf of a similar high quality.

Oops, I forgot, even if you had the millions of dollars it would cost, there's only the slightest chance—with a few well-placed ass kisses—you could get unlimited access to the best courses in the country.

Sean Leary

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2005, 08:16:16 PM »
I've always been kinda afraid to put a dollar figure on how much I have spent a year on golf in the last few years, between dues, trips, clubs etc. My wife recently asked this question as I was balking at how much we were paying for the bi-monthly house cleaners.  Mind you this was as I was considering joining a second course.  I shut myself up rather quickly..

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2005, 09:31:20 PM »
There is a very good 7,000+ yard daily fee golf course, Raven Nest, in Huntsville, TX (just north of Houston)

Very Good ???
Very good compared to what...

Who here said golf was expensive?

A friend gave me my new persimmon driver - $0.  I play memorial at < $20 and don't loose a ball there - I wear them out.

And to boot another friend lent me a very nice club history - that I haven't returned yet...   :o
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

JLahrman

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2005, 09:36:26 PM »
Brent, if we are talking about municipal golf courses can't they be viewed to be subsidized as well?

Brent Hutto

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2005, 09:43:55 PM »
Brent, if we are talking about municipal golf courses can't they be viewed to be subsidized as well?

Most likely so. But there are tennis courts right down the street from my house which have a cost to the player of zero. If there were a such thing as a for-profit daily-fee tennis court (and maybe there is for all I know) it surely wouldn't cost as much per hour as a daily-fee golf course but it would cost more than zero.

[EDIT] And let me add that I only know of one municipal golf course anywhere near where I live. The cheap courses around here are by and large for-profit daily fee/semiprivate ones.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 09:45:02 PM by Brent Hutto »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2005, 09:16:06 AM »
Yes it is.  But it doesn't have to be.  Watch for a new idea coming out soon  ;)

Steve_Lemmon

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2005, 09:42:14 AM »
Lou:    Golf is not all that expensive compared to what a deer hunter spends per year around Texas on a good lease, booze, and trips to Cabellas.  (At least that's how I justify it).  

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2005, 10:23:32 AM »


About the only things I can think of that it isn't expensive relative to are polo, skiing and yachting -- which probably explains why you never hear of some kid from the projects growing up to be a champion polo player, skiier or yachtsman.


Two words for you, Shivas: Bode Miller.

The best skier in the world grew up in Franconia, New Hampshire in a house that had no running water.

Lou_Duran

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2005, 03:25:47 PM »
Golf is as expensive or inexpensive as the individual wishes to make it.

For example, I can join Dallas National for $200,000 and $500 to $600 per month.  I can also go back to my old private club for $0 initiation and $325 per month.  While the latter can't compare to the former, it does have 18 holes, a practice facility, and a clubhouse.

Alternatively, I can join the player development program at Bear Creek for $33 per month, practice as much as I wish for that, and pay $17 to play after 1:00 (cart included).  Or, for $100 for a good used set of clubs and another $10 for 100 practice balls, I could find a park some place, hit my own balls, chip and putt at the public facilities, and clip 50% off coupons to play a couple of times per month.  Total cost = $500 +/-, or one round at Pebble Beach in a cart and a burger and one beer in the Tap Room.

For core golfers- anyone on this site including non-playing contributors like Dan King and Geoff Shackelford, golf is more of an important lifestyle element than mere recreation or a passtime (as it is for those who go to the park and throw a frisbee or a football around).  Even the once-a-month, 30-handicapper will call himself a golfer, whereas very few of us who participate in an occasional flag-football game think of ourselves as football players.

At least in my case, I evaluate golfing expenses against other so called necessities including housing, transportation, and insurance.   It is in this context that I believe golf is a relatively inexpensive endeavor in comparison to the value and enjoyment I derive from it.  And from the standpoint of inflation, golf in many areas has gotten cheaper through the last 5 - 10 years while taxes and insurances of all types have gone through the roof.

Bottom line, I don't believe that the cost of golf is a major factor in the decline of rounds played.

   




Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2005, 06:23:55 PM »
Quote
Bottom line, I don't believe that the cost of golf is a major factor in the decline of rounds played.- Lou Duran
I agree, but, golf is still expensive for those who haven't reached a financial point in their life where they have the option to consider golf, or any other comparable sport, as an "important lifestyle element".  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim Nugent

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2005, 02:18:10 AM »


For $1,700, anyone in the country can buy a season pass that gives unlimited skiing access to Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone and Arapahoe Basin—some of the greatest mountains in the world.

Add $2,000 every 5 years for new, top-of-the-line equipment and even with the travel skiing looks dirt cheap compared to golf of a similar high quality.

Oops, I forgot, even if you had the millions of dollars it would cost, there's only the slightest chance—with a few well-placed ass kisses—you could get unlimited access to the best courses in the country.

I think you have to add some lodging expenses to the $1700 you cited.  Say you ski 20 weekends, 40 days.  Would that cost a couple grand?  

If your expenses are $4000 ($1700 for the pass and $2300 for lodging), that comes to around $100 a day.  Maybe my lodging numbers are off, and certainly the more days you ski, the lower the average cost goes.

BTW, what does a day pass cost at the good slopes nowadays?  Last time I did much skiing was 1989.  Squaw Valley cost around $30 back then.  


Kevin_Reilly

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Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2005, 02:32:42 AM »
Lodging isn't necessary to add to the cost...many can ski via day trips...that's the way we do it most of the time even though it is 2:45 from our house to Sugar Bowl.

Here are the lift ticket prices at Squaw this year:

http://www.squaw.com/winter/tickets.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jim Nugent

Re:Is golf really that expensive in relative terms?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2005, 03:58:03 AM »
Lodging isn't necessary to add to the cost...many can ski via day trips...that's the way we do it most of the time even though it is 2:45 from our house to Sugar Bowl.

Here are the lift ticket prices at Squaw this year:

http://www.squaw.com/winter/tickets.html

Thanks for the rate info, Kevin.  $65.  More than double.  Actually, could save a few dollars by buying lift tickets at Safeway back then.  Usually cost me $27, if I recall right.  

Most people who ski the big mountains have to pay lodging, I think.  When I was skiing Squaw, lived in San Francisco.  No way I would make the 6 hour round trip every day.  That is mostly an option for those who live pretty close to the mountain.  If you live in FL, or MO, or LA, or most states in the country, you must add travel expenses as well.  

The big difference is that in golf most of the best courses are private, while in skiing almost anyone can get on the top slopes.    

 

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