[T_MacWood]

"Do the philosophies and principles of the A&C movement apply to golf architecture?"

Yes, I think they do, to a degree, and particulrly in one aspect.

I very much believe that some golf architecture, particularly the likes of the best of the Golden Age that tended very diligently to applications of "naturalism" in what was made, shared a common philosophy and a common principle with the A/C Movement. I've always felt that it was probably Alister Mackenzie who took that philosophy and principle in golf architecture as far as it was ever taken and he did it as well as it was ever done, in my opinion, although others certainly came close.

What influenced him to do that, however, was explained by him in a good amount of detail and it did not have to do with the A/C Movement at all but rather a process he noticed during the Boer War to do with military trenches and camouflage that he developed and applied to golf architecture. Alister MacKenzie, as I'm sure you know, also was a huge proponent of the architectural model of the old course.

And I think most of the best of the Golden Age, Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie, Alison, Macdonald, Crump, Wilson, Tillinghast, Hunter, Behr, Thomas etc all diligently followed the model of TOC and the Scottish linksland, as well as some of the early Heathland courses as a model for natualism.

I also think a number of the Golden Age architects studied and used various landscape design philosophies and principles from some of the best of the early English landscape designers such as Brown, Puckler and Repton and these men they mentioned as influencing some of their golf architecture principles.

But none of those influences were inspired by the A/C Movement. The linksland and TOC had been there for centuries, the Boers are at the far end of another continent from GB and the creation of the A/C Movement and the early English "naturalist" landscape designers mentioned as influencing the philosophies and principles of the best of the Golden Age architects were dead and gone anywhere from 50 to over 100 years before the A/C Movement even began.

All of this I've said to you over and over again, so I'm not sure why you continue to ask? Was there something you didn't understand? I have never seen a single good reaaon to alter my opinion on those things and those influences on the golf architecture of the Golden Age and it also jibes with most of which has already been written. I find very little fault or hitorical inaccuracy with most of the best of golf architecture's historians in that vein.

MacKenzie was influenced by the Boers use of natural features, other architects were influenced by use of natural features on links courses (Hutchinson, Colt and Fowler), others were influenced by the use of natural features in natural landscape or man-made gardens (Behr & Macdonald). Obviously these men had many influences, but the common denominator was the use of natural features...a complete departure from the inland Victorian courses that proceded them.

IMO the general atmosphere and prevailing aesthetic ideas (at the time; especially in and around London) made this recognition much easier.

When studying an artistic discipline of a specific period and the artists within that period (and MacKenzie and many of the others considered themselves artists) one should not ignore the social, economic and aesthetic influences of that time. Golf architecture did not develope in a vacuum....it developed in extraordinary period of economic prosperity, relocation (from city to country) and enormous creativity...across the spectrum of design disciplines.

[TEPaul]

"MacKenzie was influenced by the Boers use of natural features, other architects were influenced by use of natural features on links courses (Hutchinson, Colt and Fowler), others were influenced by the use of natural features in natural landscape or man-made gardens (Behr & Macdonald). Obviously these men had many influences, but the common denominator was the use of natural features...a complete departure from the inland Victorian courses that proceded them.

IMO the general atmosphere and prevailing aesthetic ideas (at the time; especially in and around London) made this recognition much easier.

When studying an artistic discipline of a specific period and the artists within that period (and MacKenzie and many of the others considered themselves artists) one should not ignore the social, economic and aesthetic influences of that time. Golf architecture did not develope in a vacuum....it developed in extraordinary period of economic prosperity, relocation (from city to country) and enormous creativity...across the spectrum of design disciplines."

Tom:

Everybody who reads this site or threads like this knows what you said above like the back of their hands. So why do you keep repeating stuff like that?

You know what you ought to do? You ought to go teach a kindergarten class somewhere---you just might be able to teach them something. But then again.....    

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have an advertisement here (that Geoff found) from Country Club/Pacific Caost Golf & Motor magazine that says:

Golf Course Architecture
That interprets the ground in the interests of its sporting qualities and the beauties of the landscape. The feeling that golf is natural recreation must be preserved. This can only be accomplished with due regard to the laws of landscape gardening. Golf is a sport, not a game.

Max H. Behr
350 Woodbury Road  Pasadena, California

[paul cowley]

TomM.....you're kidding me right, just feigning ignorance of the Shaker Movement
...because if you are not, I find it very disturbing for someone who seems to  profess a more than cursory knowledge of the AC movement.

Quote from Tom MacWood "Paul...I know next to nothing about the Shakers. You won't find them in any of the A and C literature.".....now Tom, its hard to believe you know nothing about Shaker Arts and Crafts?...Shaker styled furniture, tools, pillboxes?....Shaker Architecture?...etc. etc...........I think you need to drop your mouse and jump in your car as I am sure their are examples of things Shaker in your neighborhood. Just stop in your nearest furniture store.
Or just sit there and Google long enough to discover the many links between the Shaker design period and its influences on AC traditions.
I know of at least two golf courses in NY, Shaker Ridge and Shaker CC, that took their name from the movement.
[whoa...maybe there is a connection ?].....you really need to get out more....hell, come visit me in the river swamp and we can explore the ruins of the southernmost Shaker community in White Oak, Ga....just five miles away.
After that we could go hunt hogs and watch re-runs of HeeHaw  .
 

[TEPaul]

"This can only be accomplished with due regard to the laws of landscape gardening."

Tommy Boy;

Maxie was very likely referring to Humphrey Dumpty Repton there---since he referred to him and his principles of landscape design in some other articles. So did C.B. But C.B referred to Prince Puckler too. Do you blame him? Wouldn't you refer to a guy with a name like Prince Puckler too?

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Can I join you guys for the HEE HAW reruns? You got any Beverly Hillbillies reruns down there? I always had a thing for Daisy Mae and I'm sure you know that the actor who played Jethro name was Max Behr!

[T_MacWood]

Tom:

Everybody who reads this site or threads like this knows what you said above like the back of their hands. So why do you keep repeating stuff like that?

You know what you ought to do? You ought to go teach a kindergarten class somewhere---you just might be able to teach them something. But then again.....    

I'm repeating it because you've had a little problem comprehending the lesson. Let me simplify it for you:

Men with money + men with time + a heightened aesthetic sense + eclecticism  = golden age aka A&C golf

Add to this equation that the men with money were moving to the land of the sand and heather, and you have a perfect dynamic for Woking, Huntercombe, Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Worplesdon, Stoke Poges, et al. and bye bye Victorian golf courses.

You are making progress, at least you are opening your mind to other influences: the Boers, TOC, other Scotish links, Heathland courses, English landscape designers. Now if we could only get you to consider the social, economic and artistic conditions these men were working under we will have made dramatic progress.

By the way Prince Puckler was not an English landscape designer.

[T_MacWood]

Paul
I think you have been hitting the moonshine.

[T_MacWood]

Tommy
I assume that address is Behr's office....where did he live?

[DMoriarty]

I have an advertisement here (that Geoff found) from Country Club/Pacific Caost Golf & Motor magazine that says:

Golf Course Architecture
That interprets the ground in the interests of its sporting qualities and the beauties of the landscape. The feeling that golf is natural recreation must be preserved. This can only be accomplished with due regard to the laws of landscape gardening. Golf is a sport, not a game.

Max H. Behr
350 Woodbury Road  Pasadena, California

Very interesting find Tommy and Geoff.   Perhaps Tom MacWood should take a slightly different angle to this whole thing and delve into one architect-- Max Behr.  

In 1915, Behr lists Repton as a primary influence and guide for Golf Course Architects-- as do the the AC Landscapers.  Over a decade later, he was still singing the same tune about Repton.  

Now here we have him again defining Golf Course Design as subservient to the principles of Landscape Gardening.  

But then again he was living in Pasadena at this time, so I doubt he would have had any exposure to Arts and Crafts principles, ideas, or works there . . . .

[paul cowley]

...it amazes me that some people seem to think there are set laws or principles to landscape design and it amazes me even more that they also think that other design disciplines are controlled by these same laws.....wow, I better be carefull least I break any Laws

[ForkaB]

paul

the man wasn't called fredrick LAW olmstead for nothing.  watch your back, buckaroo....

[paul cowley]

Rich ...thanks for the tip but I'm most comfortable with old Fredrick, we pretty much sing from the same sheets...but until I learn more about this Prince Puckler fellow I plan on keeping my guard up.

[TEPaul]

"By the way Prince Puckler was not an English landscape designer."

Hermann Ludwig Heinrich von Puckler-Muskau?!

No shit, Sherlock!

Even if his name sounded about as English as a name can sound, believe it or not Prince Puckler was actually German!

When in his twenties Heinie Puckler inherited something that sounds about as English as a name can sound---eg "Standesherrschaft" of Muskau and became a Prince.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty said:

"In 1915, Behr lists Repton as a primary influence and guide for Golf Course Architects-- as do the the AC Landscapers.  Over a decade later, he was still singing the same tune about Repton.  
Now here we have him again defining Golf Course Design as subservient to the principles of Landscape Gardening."

What Behr meant by 'the laws of landscape gardening' is that a good golf architect should always consider what the forces of Nature (wind and water) can do to the earth when he makes something with the earth or on the earth because if he doesn't it may not last long.  

 

[TEPaul]

"I'm repeating it because you've had a little problem comprehending the lesson. Let me simplify it for you:"

Tom MacWood:

I've had no problem at all comprehending your "lesson". It's just that your fixation with the A/C movement's influence on GCA is historically inaccurate and it's important that others who read your "lesson"   understand that.

"Men with money + men with time + a heightened aesthetic sense + eclecticism  = golden age aka A&C golf"

Good going there Tom, you're definitely getting warmer. Just lop off and shitcan that "aka A&C golf" on the end and don't automatically assume "a heightened aesthetic sense" has to do with Morris, Rushkin and the A&C Movement's influence, and you'll be practically home free.  

If you get that far, don't worry about the rest, we'll teach you about the influence of the linksland and TOC and the influences of the earlier landscape designers like  Little Willie Kent, "Capability" Brown, and Humphrey Dumpty Repton, and last but of course never least, Prince Heinie Puckler. Prince Heinie Puckler did make a few quality trips to England but unfortunately he was born probably a tad too early to really get to know Morris and Wilde and the Boys and their homosocial clique. It's too bad because I think if the A/C and Aesthe Movement Boys had known Prince Heinie they all really would've had a time together.

[TEPaul]

"TomM.....you're kidding me right, just feigning ignorance of the Shaker Movement.   "

Paul:

Tom MacWood doesn't have to feign ignorance----he does a great job of it when he's trying to be serious.  

 

[T_MacWood]

I also think a number of the Golden Age architects studied and used various landscape design philosophies and principles from some of the best of the early English landscape designers such as Brown, Puckler and Repton and these men they mentioned as influencing some of their golf architecture principles.

I'm sure it was just an oversight.

[T_MacWood]

If you get that far, don't worry about the rest, we'll teach you about the influence of the linksland and TOC and the influences of the earlier landscape designers like  Little Willie Kent, "Capability" Brown, and Humphrey Dumpty Repton, and last but of course never least, Prince Heinie Puckler. Prince Heinie Puckler did make a few quality trips to England but unfortunately he was born probably a tad too early to really get to know Morris and Wilde and the Boys and their homosocial clique. It's too bad because I think if the A/C and Aesthe Movement Boys had known Prince Heinie they all really would've had a time together.

TE
I look forward to your essay...I'm sure in preparation you'll have plied the Internet for days for all things relating to Brown, Repton, Puckler et al...it should be enlightening.

Internet research + merlot = a breakthrough essay

[TEPaul]

"...I'm sure in preparation you'll have plied the Internet for days for all things relating to Brown, Repton, Puckler et al...it should be enlightening."

You're sure I will have plied the Internet for days are you? Hmmm!

I see no need at all to go into the life histories of those landscape designers, who their granfathers and fathers were and what they did, what their religous or social beliefs were etc, etc, etc.

The point is that landscape designers like a "Capbility" Brown or Repton were real heavyweights in their field and it's only important to state that because it's totally irrefutable. And it's important to state that beginning with William Kent, and through Brown and Repton, and due to them, the art form of landscape design shifted from the highly formalized landscape style of Italy and early England to a far more natural look and using far more natural lines and features.

And when it comes to the influence of the natural landscape design style and "principles" of Brown or Repton on some of the most notable golf architects of the Golden Age and their philosophies it's only important to point out and quote what they wrote about a Repton's influence on their art, no more.

But when it comes to the matter of influence from the A/C Movement on GCA through landscape design it's only important to point out the fact that the men from landscape design who were given the credit by those Golden Agers (Repton, Brown, Puckler) preceded the A/C movement by app 50 to 100 years. If any of those Golden Age architects mentioned a landscape designer like Gertrude Jekyll as being an influence on their art form, or on the principles of their art form, I'd like to see it, as then it could definitely be taken far more seriously.

And then there was the Scottish linksland, particularly TOC that predated architecture itself as it was used for golf for centuries in the case of TOC...  

What the reasons were for those obnoxious looking golf features of the beginnings of golf in England in the so-called "Dark Ages" I have my own theory, and it doesn't have a lot to do with "Victorian aesthetics" and the Industrial Revolution that most of the A/C proponents were revolting against in the latter half of the 19th century for aesthetic reassons but also very much for political and social reasons.  

I've asked you a couple of times about your mention of men like Vanderbilt and Astor relative to Willie Park jr, Tom. What's the matter, did a cat get your tongue or was it because I told you what I did about them and you suddenly realized they were probably the last people to support an A/C Movement and a guy like William Morris and his beliefs?  

[DMoriarty]

Tommy
I assume that address is Behr's office....where did he live?

Tom M.

My guess is that this was Behr's home and workplace.  Woodbury road is now mixed residential and business, but it would have been a bit off the beaten business track during Behr's time.

I think Woodbury Road used to intersect with the Arroyo around what is now the top of Brookside golf course, but the 210 cuts through there now.  

It is interesting his choice of language.  He doesnt refer to following the laws of nature, but of interpreting the ground and giving due to the laws of landscape gardening.  
Both interpretation and gardening are decidedly human pursuits.

[T_MacWood]

David
The use of the term landscape gardener reminds me of Andrew Jackson Downing....I'd love to get a look at Behr's library.

[TEPaul]

"It is interesting his choice of language.  He doesnt refer to following the laws of nature, but of interpreting the ground and giving due to the laws of landscape gardening."

Yes, if Behr's choice of language was anything it most certainly was interesting.

I think I have most everything by him and I'll show you some of his quotations where it's obvious that to him the "laws of landscape gardening" and the "Law of Nature" are essentially one and the same thing.

One of the unique things about Behr's writing and his articles on golf architecture is the very same theme runs through most all of them and he wrote them in one iteration or another for over 35 years. Not much chance, therefore that he would all of a sudden say something totally inconsistent.

Behr's theme on what he referred to as the "Laws of landscape gardening" and the "Law of Nature" wasn't exactly rocket science. He felt if one studied how nature works on earth-forms via water and wind (the forces of Nature) one will understand better how to actually make things in golf architecture that will best withstand those forces of Nature over time and will therefore be more "Permanent". And like a lot of his contemporaries and like-minded architects he felt what waa more permanent would obviously be more economical. Essentially Behr felt a convex angle is stronger and more enduring than a concave angle.

Not only that but he felt if any golfer percieved any feature on a golf course to be made by nature he'd be far less likely to criticize it than if he felt it was made by man. And if he was less likely to criticize it he was less likely to want to change it, and therefore it would logically be more permanent, and more economical in the long run.

[TEPaul]

"The use of the term landscape gardener reminds me of Andrew Jackson Downing....I'd love to get a look at Behr's library."

Tom MacWood:

Well, you're not going to get a look at Max Behr's library and THANK THE LORD, you're not. Let me remind you again that Behr mentioned quite clearly Repton and his landscape design principles as an influence on GCA and again Repton preceded the A/C Movement and he preceded Andrew Jackson Downing too. Learn to live with it!  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

From David Moriarty,

But then again he was living in Pasadena at this time, so I doubt he would have had any exposure to Arts and Crafts principles, ideas, or works there . . . .

Very good one David. Very good!

The entire thing comes down to two very important qualities, and since I've played more Behr courses then all of you put together, I feel I'm able to interject some point of sound ground and reasoning; good peace between all men and good will on earth....

What they looked like and what they played like. Behr's courses didn't photograph very well. Don't get me wrong, but if your looking at them in pictures, other then the one in Geoff's Golden Age which crosses the LA River, there just doesn't seem to be a lot looking like it was going on.  To me, it was what was in the ground as well as how the hole was affected by wind and/or other natural elements like uphill, downhill, sidehill shots. These were player's courses. You had have, or at the very least learn how to make shots on them to take advantage of the best line to the hole. The also were designed around natural aspects of how they were maintained; how the site was when he got first got there was what Behr felt was most in tune with nature, and at Lakeside for instance, he manufactured a great deal of the course with TONS of beach sand brought in. He constructed very raw and natural waste areas that eventually produced interesting and provoking thought when on the tee; in the fairway and on the green. These natural land movements which he created looked as if they had always been there--he created in the most craftsman sense for golf--and that is the point. It was all about what was IN THE GROUND and what was coming out of it and evenutally producing--GREAT GOLF.

There is little doubt in my mind that he thought in Fibonacci numbers in terms of how nature and man affected play. And in the very best aspect of his ancestory--didn't mind being a hun while doing so.

That's Max Behr.

That's the Max Behr I have observed while PLAYING his courses, as well as observing what is left of them and reading all of his articles and pronouncements--and with the greatest regret of all, there is nothing permanent left about them.

It's one of the great travesties in golf.

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