[Ted Kramer]

I don't know which pictures are current, but I much prefer the first photo without the huge bunker, footpaths and wind vane in the background (or are they hidden because of the angle?).  The hole flows much better into the landscape on the first photo.  There is too much going on in the other photos.  Very distracting to the eye.  Perhaps this is the intention.  

Everytime I see photos of this course I need a tissue to wipe the drool down my chin.

Ciao

Sean

I completely agree with both points.
I much prefer the look of the hole in the 1st pic, and photos of the course are always a real treat!!

-Ted

[RJ_Daley]

I kind of like the windmill as part of the look of the area.  But, I agree that the paths are a bit distracting.  If I remember correctly, the reason that the paths are so prominent in that area of 16g-17t-18t cross paths so to speak, is that it was a major staging area for the boys equipment whilst building and growing the course in.  

[Gene Greco]

    I believe just walking up that hill with lawn mower in tow was enough to deter even the most erstwhile turf sentry from enthusiastically maintaining that tee.

    At that point in the round, walking up said hill on a broiler of a day in mid July to hit your shot required all the strength one could muster. THEN one would have to negotiate that last hill on 18.

    Furthermore, in a normal wind (80% of the time about 15 mph) from that elevation and prior to hitting the shot, one would have needed target practice hitting meteors out of the sky in order to confidentally step up and hit the green. You HAD to be a skilled enough player to hit it low with spin.

    With that said, I still believe the lost tee on 17 was one of the greatest shots in all of golf and should be brought back into play and not left as a curiosity or  great vantage point for a photo op. There are few tees in the world which can inspire a sense of awe and fear quite like this one.

       Finally, the present tee offers a fair amount of challenge in most wind conditions for even the better player.  In its favor architecturally is the completion of a virtually perfect sense of balance with respect to not only the par threes - from the monstrous, heroic and colon emptying 221 yd #13 to an artist's deft touch required at #17 - but the back nine in general, and the finish; one snakes DOWN Amazon-like #16, always fraught with hidden dangers over the course of its 612 yds to a bunkerless green, then well- bunkered #17 at 150 yds followed by the almost surreal, UPHILL, torturous moonscape of a finish.

     #17 fits into the perfect puzzle which is the Sand Hills Golf Club from either tee.    

[RJ_Daley]

It seems to me that what the golf world is missing is a seriously competitive event to be held at Sand Hills.  

Regular tournaments seem out of the question.  I was thinking that one of the most perfect times of year out there is late Sept.  Wouldn't it be great to have a made for TV field of say 16-32 players, with little reliance on a spectator gate due to the logistics.  If they had something like that during the week of the Texas Valero Open, where there isn't such a deep field anyway, perhaps the world could enjoy seeing this mysterious course tackled by really high calibre players.  

Then, we could see the back tee ayt 17 under the conditions we mere golf mortals can only dream of.

Gene, you must have seen some really fine players at the back tee of 17 in your time.  How do you think a field of top players would see the penultimate hole if they were forced to face it 4 times in a true competive tournament?  Would they pan it and say too hard and unfair, or really relish the challenge.  

I'm thinking 17 SH would reek havoc in their heads in a similar psychological way as 17 at Sawgrass.  Yet, Sawgrass is not that tough of a swing to make in a practical sense, whereas back tee at 17 SH would be havoc both in the mind and as a physical matter to make a mightly swing with what could be a wide variety of clubs given the greater distance, and more variable wind speeds.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't know which pictures are current, but I much prefer the first photo without the huge bunker, footpaths and wind vane in the background (or are they hidden because of the angle?).  The hole flows much better into the landscape on the first photo.  There is too much going on in the other photos.  Very distracting to the eye.  Perhaps this is the intention.  

Sean,

Are you suggesting that the golfer should be forced to wear blinders ?[/color]

Everytime I see photos of this course I need a tissue to wipe the drool down my chin.

Tom Huckaby,

It's been a few months since I was at Sand Hills.
Could you remind me of something.

Is the 18th fairway and hole still part of the golf course ?[/color]

[Gene Greco]

Dick:

   Over four days in normal conditions they would score 2,3,3,5. Don't forget #17 has the flatest green on the course and these guys not only hit the ball better than anybody I've seen there, they putt lights out, too. I feel two balls would hit the green birding with one, one would be bunkered with a recovery par and the other would blow off the planet.

A far as "wreaking havoc with their heads" I don't believe that would happen at 17. I believe that with tough pins, wind and the present lightening green speeds, their heads would be toast by this point.

In September, on the third day of his visit, a member of Shinnecock who also happened to have made it to the finals of the championship flight there, told me after the first day of play he thought to himself, "There is NO ONE who could play this course!"

And this gentleman, in a light wind, hit the 17th green both times from the abandoned tee!

[Gene Greco]

BTW, the ONLY person I've seen master the greens at Sand Hills is the one and only, Patrick Mucci. Downhill, sidehill, uphill didn't matter.

Never seen anything like it.

[RJ_Daley]

BTW, the ONLY person I've seen master the greens at Sand Hills is the one and only, Patrick Mucci. Downhill, sidehill, uphill didn't matter.

Never seen anything like it.

Now that is some endorsement!!!  But, after that pronoucement , pity anyone wanting to buy him a new hat for X-mas.  They'll have to shop at the "Big and Swelled" store.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene Greco,

Thanks for the compliment.

I think I qualify as an idiot savant in the putting department.

As well as I putted at Sand Hills the reverse happened to me during my club Championship which I lost by missing two, one and a half footers, the last one on the 18th hole after my opponent made a 10 footer, enabling him to win one up.

While I made some great putts at Seminole I also missed a two footer on # 17, three putting from 18 feet, costing us the outright championship.

But, I'm going to work on it.
I think I've figured out why I putt well and why I putt poorly.
Time will tell.

I also noticed an anomaly or defect in the 17th green.

There was a small bump, or lump in the green that most golfers couldn't detect that deflected putts hit toward the front of the green from the back of the green.  

I personally witnessed a terrible putt, hit far too hard and well off line, strike this bump, causing it to be redirected toward the hole.  This bump took enough pace off of the putt to allow it to hit the back of the cup, where it still managed to cause severe damage, before bouncing into the air and back into the bottom of the cup.

I spoke to the superintendent about this after the round.
He indicated that certain mole like animals have been known to burrow under certain elevated greens, and while feeding on the roots, cause these mostly imperceptible bumps as they get nearer to the surface.

He indicated that the smell of hickory and/or high pitched whining sounds tend to attract them.

R.J Daley,

I've been around far too long and have seen the cruel punishment that the "golf gods" can mete out, so you won't see me needing a new hat size.

I just wish they'd have fixed that bump on # 17 before I played the hole.

[Gene Greco]

Patrick:

   Geez, Ran plays hickories.

And he did tend to whine a bit during our match.

Better investigate this further by giving the super down at Yeaman's Hall a buzz to see how lumpy their greens are.

[Bob_Huntley]

I do feel the 17th is the best hole on the course, front or back tee, makes no difference. It was there that my good friend Neil Regan resurrected my game, rather akin to Lazarus arising from the dead,  by  photographing me in my attempt to copy Hogan's shot at the 18th at Merion, a long time ago. The full follow-through in exquisite balance, belly button left of the target line and a languid finish. Oh, if it could only be repeated.

I parred the hole, quite possibly the first of the day, it had to be the toughest, most difficult, thought provoking shot in golf.

I trust that there will no attempt to diminish the difficulty of playing this hole, with or without wind. It is a miniature masterpiece.

And Gene Greco, thanks for giving me the opportunity to best this devilish masterpiece.

Bob

[Mark_Fine]

Bob,
Hogan hit a 1 iron on #18 which is a par four.  #17 at Sand Hills is a par three and is not a 1 iron shot from any tee.  Is everyone talking about the same hole    "The toughest most thought provoking shot in all of golf", I don't think so!!
Mark

[Mike Hendren]

The climb up and back down is slightly awkward, particularly late in the round but I like the view up there, particularly the 18th in the distance beyond.  The course doesn't lack for views, however, and doesn't need to go begging.  That, and the hole fits nicely as a short one-shotter in the mix.

Given the amount of time invested on this site by those complaining about the distance problem, I'm assuming 180 yards is an easy 7-iron for most folks on here and doesn't seem to be an unreasonable demand from the top tee.

Maybe the best solution is merely to put a simple bench up there where one can pause, sit, contemplate his good fortune and take in one last sweeping panorama before heading home, both figuratively and literally.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

How would you compare the climb, up and down, at # 17 at Sand Hills to # 18 at Pacific Dunes ?

[Tom Huckaby]

I don't know which pictures are current, but I much prefer the first photo without the huge bunker, footpaths and wind vane in the background (or are they hidden because of the angle?).  The hole flows much better into the landscape on the first photo.  There is too much going on in the other photos.  Very distracting to the eye.  Perhaps this is the intention.  

Sean,

Are you suggesting that the golfer should be forced to wear blinders ?[/color]

Everytime I see photos of this course I need a tissue to wipe the drool down my chin.

Tom Huckaby,

It's been a few months since I was at Sand Hills.
Could you remind me of something.

Is the 18th fairway and hole still part of the golf course ?[/color]

Patrick:

It's been a few months for me also, but I will help you out.

Sure the 18th hole and fairway are - but there also is no big wall blinding one to the wonderful rolling hills beyond, and to each side, giving about 330 degrees of wonderful VISTAS as one looks from that perch on the old 17th tee.  At least not for me.  How sad your vision extends so short.

 

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

Pacific Dunes is among a seemingly infinite number of golf courses I've yet to play.  Some day.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike Hendren,

How would you compare the climb, up and down, at # 17 at Sand Hills to # 18 at Pacific Dunes ?

I'll help out my buddy Mike.

The climb and hike back to the very back tee on 18 PD is pretty severe, roughly equal to the climb to the old upper tee on 17 SH.   Good call Patrick - these are very similar.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Hogan hit a 1 iron on #18 which is a par four.

I don't think that is so!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Did you happen to notice in your 330 degree glance a similarity or blending of the surrounding landscape, with few if any distinguishing features ?

Wasn't it the golf course that riveted your attention and focus ?

I didn't travel a day, each way, to take in the views.
I came to play the golf course and study the architecture.

Tell me about the 360 degree view from a ship isolated in the middle of the ocean.

[Tom Huckaby]

I travelled to play a great golf course with a great group of guys.  A small part of what made the greatness of the golf course was the incredible views extending so far in each direction.  A small part of what made the great guys was how intransigent at least one was, refusing to concede points they know in their hearts are not only wrong, but silly.

 

But why don't you tell me how inconsequential the view was extending from the back of the 2nd green.  Gee, I seem to remember each time there at least someone trying to guess how far away the radio tower was, and always getting it wrong.  Nope, that doesn't matter at all.  I forgot - the Mucci/Clayman wall extends upward from the back of that green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I travelled to play a great golf course with a great group of guys.  A small part of what made the greatness of the golf course was the incredible views extending so far in each direction.  A small part of what made the great guys was how intransigent at least one was, refusing to concede points they know in their hearts are not only wrong, but silly.

That's the same basic, repetitive view you had on the one hour ride from North Platte to Mullen.[/color]


But why don't you tell me how inconsequential the view was extending from the back of the 2nd green.  Gee, I seem to remember each time there at least someone trying to guess how far away the radio tower was, and always getting it wrong.  Nope, that doesn't matter at all.  I forgot - the Mucci/Clayman wall extends upward from the back of that green.

Your memory is flawed.
The discussion had to do with scale and distance, and the conversation took place on Ben's porch, with the assistance of binoculars and imput from some of the locals.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I does not surprise me a whit you find those views bland and repetitive, though it does make me sad for your golfing soul.  Gee, a friend of ours gave us MUSIC to play to accompany said views, music he found appropriate to match its grandeur.  I guess he was full of shit and you played Eminem in your car?

And my memory is flawed at times, but not this time. YOU might have had that conversation on Ben's porch.  I've had it several times - in the visit with you and my prior one - either standing behind 2 green or on 3 tee.  In any case, hmmmm.... you acknowledge the conversation took place but choose to question the details.... Interesting why you'd care about something that you believe doesn't matter at all.....

 

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark Fine,

Hogan did not hit a one iron Merion, contrary to popular belief.

My comments on the greatness, or otherwise, of the 17th was an amateur's attempt at a little humor. I am sorry you missed it.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob - rest assured I got the humor and did laugh out loud.  I've used that type myself from time to time... In fact I believe I once called #4 at Sand Hills the toughest golf hole on the planet, of course right after describing how I made a 3 on it.

 

What is getting rather lost here, though, is that #17 is a DAMN tough shot from the normal tee.  150 to that small target with that type of death surrounding it... add in any sort of wind, which one damn near always gets... and well, Patrick may have never made more than three, but I believe I've played the hole 10 times at least and I think I've hit the green twice!  Of course I am no Patrick when it comes to precision iron play - who here is - but I'd like to think I don't suck THAT bad.

The one time I played it from the upper tee, the wind was blowing pretty hard across and that small target seemed impossible.  180 from up there... yikes.  That's what has me thinking it might be TOO much up there.

In the end, Gene Greco's post says all that need be said on this subject.  Or at least I think so.

TH

[Gene Greco]

Tom:

   Yes you did birdie it in June.

   HOWEVER, during your previous visit from the double diamond 485 yd tee I recall Mike Cirba and/or Dr. Childs and/or Brad Miller and myself (maybe I don't recall who made up the exact fourball ) all making birdie.

The caddie, Brett,  who was a Chick Evans Scholar and is a fine young gentleman, rarely ever saw a birdie on that hole from that tee and stood shaking his head in disbelief at what he was witnessing. Not even groups of pros accomplished that feat.

Yet there you stood with only three feet to make it four birdies and.......

THAT'S when you proclaimed #4 as being the hardest hole on the planet.

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