High Pointe's 13th green

[Mike Nuzzo]

I have never been to High Pointe.
I am curious about the 13th green.
Does anyone have any pictures or can anyone describe the green complex?

A little bit of research...

From the Ron Whitten Interview when asked about some favorite holes:
"13th at High Pointe GC, Williamsburg, Mich. - 434 yds. par 4 Tom Doak (1987). As natural a green setting, incorporating an existing ridgeline, as there is. When I first saw it, I knew Doak was up to something different."


From the Greens contouring thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20661;start=msg370877#msg370877
Tom mentioned the 7th green at Friars may have some similarity with the 13th at High Pointe.

From the Confidential Guide:
"Greens such as the 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th and 13th are my finest creations"

Thank you.

[Chris_Hunt]

Mike:

Here are some shots I took during a wintry tour a couple years back.  I sized them down to 1200 across...sorry if you resolution is lower.  

They were spraying, and thus kept me to the cart path, and the flags are obviously out, but here are some views.  Having not played HP, I would assume TD's reference to likening this green to the 7th at Friar's Head was from a certain 'U-shaped' putt that played similarly, as the two greens visually seem quite different.  The 7th at Friar's Head must have six feet of elevation change in the green...

The tee shot (the green sits in the saddle, thus the hole's name)




The approach from maybe 100+ yards (on the cart path)




A profile of the green from the right




A panoramic of the greensite looking back towards the tee.  The photgrapher's eye clearly moved positions here, accounting for the awkward overlap, but you get a general sense of the spot. and the distinct internal contour.




Definitely on of my favorite greens on the course, without playing, of course.  Followed up by one of the coolest tee shots on the course as well...

[Steve Lang]

 
Hey Mike,

its 70F and sunny, you should be out playin, i'm leaving work soon...

I've played Highpointe every summer since it opened (usually followed by a steak on the other side of TC at Boones Long Lake Inn).  First, I'd put it all into context... consider you've just completed the front's open links experi... more is coming , though in a wooded environment..

the par 4 10th abruptly immerses you into the forested hills and valleys on the south side of the property, you will be winded after getting to the green.. (assuming you have to walk up that hill to the green)

the par 3 11th forces you to hit a crowned target, death looms all aound ( a hole best played perhaps the first time)

the par 4 12th takes you gently downhill but presents a multi-tiered green ooozing out of the hillside.. many a three putt or worse have been recorded there..

climb the adjacent hill and now you're faced with those elevated views Chris provided.. the par 4 13th is an easy driving hole, the deal with the approach is mentally accepting  the fact that you may end up 10-20+ yards left of where you aim.. over that left to right rounded ridge line juxtaposing the right to left lay of the green complex seen in the second pic..

Chris' last photo doesn't really do justice to the slope/drop-off on the green.. and the amount of green in front of the bunker.. the ball easily tumbles left when hit short anywhere but right flank of green halfway back.. got a high fade?

Take your draw to the next hole.. all the way up to the top tee!

[Doug Wright]

Steve,

Good description of holes 10-13 at High Pointe. It was the first Doak course I played several years ago. While some of the holes there don't work (especially the really bad 18th) there are some special features, and the 13th green is at the top of the list. The 11th is one strong par 3, and the 16th green is pretty damn unique too.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Chris,
Thank you so much for the images - and yes my monitor is way bigger than 1200...

Steve,
Thank you for the descriptions - it feels likeI haven't played in Texas in years - which is why playing is so cheap.  

It looks like the closer one is to the cart path on the tee shot, the better the approach to the green.  Based on the 100 yard approach image.  Is that true?

What part of the green can you putt from to get to the other?  Front right to front left?

What kind of shot does the green best accept - depending on pin location?

Doug or Seve -
What is wrong with 18?

CHeers

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

The green is something along the lines of a large potato chip, maybe 8000-9000 square feet.  [It's under snow today so I can't go out and measure!]  It sits in a saddle between two hills and the green is sort of saddle-shaped also.

The right side of the green rises up into the hill at the back right in three "tiers," with slight up-and-over rolls along the right side of the green between the tiers.  The left front is even with the right until about the middle of the green, but then it falls AWAY from the line of play to a lower back-left pin, with a bunker in the back left that cuts up into the hill at the back right.

If you are in the middle of the green on the right and the pin is back left, there is about a three-foot tier down to the hole, and even at High Pointe speeds the putt is likely to "de-green" as someone coined the term.  However, if you putt up to the back right corner of the green, there is a tilt to the left, and the ball will come back down a funnel to the lower left pin without running off the green.  You can also try that on a chip from the right side of the green (which I've done a lot), or even on a second shot approach, although I've never seen anyone pull it off from more than 50 yards out.

I got the idea because of the back left bunker; if you just trickle into it you have almost no stance to play back toward the hole at the lower left, so we extended the green up the hill so you could play out behind the hole and have it come on back ... and then I realized how it would play for approach putts or chips from the right side.

It's much more fun to play than to describe.

[Philippe Binette]

As I said when I played there with 2 members this autumn: Tom Doak likes to built greens where you can look really stupid every once in a while...

They both laughed until one replied: you mean every day...

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom,
Thank you.

Sounds like a great modification in the field.  Are those california greens?  And how much does the profile depth vary?

How does the bunker hold up to rain?  or does the water miss it?

I'm looking forward to seeing it one day.
I really like the line in the confidential guide about how they are managing the course.  "..for they know not what they do..."

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

The greens on the back nine at High Pointe are all native soil greens.  We pushed up some earth at the green and screened it to get out the stones, shaped a well, and put the screened material back inside the well a foot deep ... but the floor of the well is really the same material, except it's got some stones in it.

None of the green drains into the bunker, the edge is slightly raised so the water from the "funnel" in the green goes off the side of the green in front of the bunker and away to the left.