How Original

[wsmorrison]

What are some of the outstanding examples of classic era courses that are as near to their original form as exists for:

Donald Ross
Alister MacKenzie
Macdonald/Raynor
Thompson
Thomas
Tillinghast
Flynn
Travis
Colt
Alison
Abercrombie
Findlay
Park, Jr.
Braid
Fowler

[Matthew MacKay]

Good question Wayne.  It's something that has been banging around my head for a while, particularly with all the restoration work going on these days.

I suppose the three main elements to look at would be routing, greens, and bunkers.  

The only suggestions I can begin with are Thompson's St. George's (although a few holes were redone by Robinson), and Capilano is pretty much intact as far as I know.  

Ian Andrew has worked on many Thompson and Travis courses, hopefully he'll chime in.

[Robert Thompson]

From what I understand, Cataraqui is a Thompson that is quite intact, though it was built over top of an existing course. Similarly, I thought Travis' Lookout Point is quite similar to when it was initially built.

[Matthew MacKay]

Robert, I think you're probably right about Lookout Point, which is one of many reasons it is so damn good.  I do know the current driving range used to be the 9th hole.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matt,

I don't think St. George's is at the top of list of Thompson designs that remain purely intact. As you know, holes 3, 4, 9 and 15 are Robinson's. And, I'm pretty sure most of the green surfaces have been altered.  

There have been some significant changes made at Capilano, too, including new greens at holes 6 and 14.

Although the bunkers at Highlands Links are screwed up, big time, Thompson's routing and green surfaces are left intact. Jasper's pretty close to original, too, I think.

Thompson did a few courses in small towns throughout Ontario. I'm sure a couple of those layouts haven't been touched.

[Matthew MacKay]

Jeff, it's somewhat ironic that the least altered Thompson designs were some of his lesser ones, such as Allandale up near Barrie.  Ian claims that this may be the most intact of Thompson courses, yet I wouldn't make the 1 hour drive from Toronto to play it again.

I agree that if Highlands had its bunkers done properly, it would be very close to original.

Ian's recent restoration of bunkers at Kawartha has made that course much better, and maybe a contender for most intact as well.  I only know of one hole (#3) that has been significantly altered since its inception.  There is no way the blue collar, brown bag lunch membership would have payed for any changes!

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

When you say original, do you mean that while features may have shrunk, they could easily be restored?

The most original Flynn that I've played may very well be Rolling Green, depending on how much credence you put the green changes made at Huntingdon Valley. Gil Hanse's master plan seems to have kept the majority of Flynn in the course.

The existing Park holes on the White Course are a few expanded greens and cut down trees away from being like the Park course of old.

Then there are courses like Bethpage Black where the renovations made may have bulldozed original Tillie features... however, they too could be restored with a bit of extra work.

[Craig Disher]

Mid-Pines appears nearly unchanged from Ross's late 1930s version when the sand greens were replaced with grass. Except for the addition of ponds on #3 and #5, I don't think there have been any significant alterations or additions.

Are there any better examples of original Ross? Certainly not down the road at the Pinehurst Resort.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matt,

Those "blue collar, brown bag" members are ideal!

Most classic golf course designs that remain intact belong to clubs, owners and municipalities that just won't spend!

Bless them  

Roseland is a great example. Donald Ross' routing and all eighteen greens are left intact because the city of Windsor has never put money into the course! Granted, its a rundown muni these days, but original features are still there.

[mike_malone]

 Original form?

   Prioritize the features that constitute this form. My take is:

      Routing----Change of hole's shape         --Green size and shape--Bunker placement and shape--fairway width and contour--trees--inplay aspect of other hazards like OB or water--tees (usually moved back to keep the "form" of all the other things). I' m sure this prioritization can be improved through the input of more expert analysis than mine.

   On this basis I agree with Kyle that Rolling Green gets high marks. But, like a spoiled child I want what I don't have. So, I hope for the " look" to be original. This leads me to trees , bunkers , and fairways for restoration efforts.

     An example  of changing the hole  is Gulph Mills' #10 hole.  The hole went from a elevated tee with a view of the green and the fronting pond to a forced dogleg left with a line of evergreens to protect the driving range. This has a major impact on my assessment of "how original" the course is.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

At GMGC actually holes #7-14 were all changed in one way or another. About five of those were changed by Perry Maxwell and were probably made better than they were originally from Ross. The rest were changed by RTJ (to make way for a range) and those have never been that much respected compared to what they were previously.

In my opinion, once it was finally completed and all 18 holes were finally opened for play following Crump's death PVGC may be one of the least changed courses in existence---other than the evolutionary tree encroachment. Recently some serious tee length was added to the course and that was perhaps more alteration to the course than had been done since 1921 when the course was finally finished.

[wsmorrison]

"An example  of changing the hole  is Gulph Mills' #10 hole.  The hole went from a elevated tee with a view of the green and the fronting pond to a forced dogleg left with a line of evergreens to protect the driving range. This has a major impact on my assessment of "how original" the course is."

Your assessment of how original the course is should take into account the real improvements made by Maxwell.  In the case of GMGC the lack of purity is a good thing.  This sometimes gets lost on a number of purists on this site.

The entire hole corridor for the 10th hole has been changed, Mike.  The driving range is where the old 10th fairway used to be.  According to some guy named Tom Paul (he wrote an excellent architectural evolution report) the original 10th was played from the current practice tee down the current driving range to a green 50 yards beyond the current green.

Rolling Green is, in my opinion, a good example of retaining some original features.  In terms of original green dimensions and locations it could hardly be beat for original Flynn.  Bunkers have been moved over the years for playability.  Some good results, some bad.  It is important to bear in mind that Flynn would often tinker with bunker schemes over time.

Fairway widths seem to suffer as much as any feature on most courses and this is true at RGGC and other Flynn courses such as Shinnecock Hills.  Indian Creek has done a terrific job in maintaining fairway acreage but even they have lost a sizable amount although they started out with as much as nearly any course ever built.

Trees are a problem at RGGC but the routing is absolutely intact.  Its great to hear the new superintendent has an excellent grasp of the tree problems and seems dedicated to acting on it.

[Troy Alderson]

Tom Paul,

Regarding PVGC and its alerations, is it considered an original if the original tees, fairways, and greens are untouched and the club only added back tees for length?  It may not be a true original, but you can still play the golf course as it was originally laid out.

Troy

[Dave_Miller]

What are some of the outstanding examples of classic era courses that are as near to their original form as exists for:

Donald Ross
Alister MacKenzie
Macdonald/Raynor
Thompson
Thomas
Tillinghast
Flynn
Travis
Colt
Alison
Abercrombie
Findlay
Park, Jr.
Braid
Fowler

Ross-  Charles River, except for the 15th hole is as near to the original design as one can get.
Best
Dave

[Ian Andrew]

Wayne,

Nothing is untouched.

Here is my list where I would say there is almost everything intact. That means - no relocated holes or greens, which eliminates St. George's and Lookout Point for example. I have put the most altered area in brackets.

Best of Thompson

-Jasper
-Banff (18 greens)
-Cataraqui (3 holes were never Thompson's - he left them from the original course - 2 greens)
-Kawartha (2 greens)
-Capilano (some bunkering and 5 greens )
-Highland Golf Links (bunkers)

Colt

-Toronto Golf (3 greens)

Alison

-Park CC (some bunkers)



I have no Travis courses I work with that are not signifigantly altered. Every Thompson course I know of has had some form of surgery. Lookout has two new holes.

Wayne, what is intact ? Routing, all bunkers and 18 original greens ? If so, I know of none.

[wsmorrison]

Ian,

Good question.  For me, since it is hard to argue that nothing is untouched, if the routing, a set if tees and greens are original, that's pretty intact and enough for me though I'd like to see greenside bunkering intact as well.  Fairway bunkers and lines of play (inclucing fairway width) would seem to me to be the most altered features.

[Philip Gawith]

Wayne, have a look at the pictures of Huntercombe I posted. Certainly nothing of consequence has changed at the course - bar the trees growing - in living memory (so the senior members tell me).

The routing of the course changed 30-40 years ago when the clubhouse moved, but i don't think the course has changed at all. The only discernible change is a few gorse bushes planted in some places, which look out of place!

[Philip Gawith]

Sorry - I should have said as an example of Willie Park Jr's work.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne and Ian,

I think the original routing and 18 original green surfaces qualifies as relatively intact these days. Don't you think?

Which eliminates Banff, Ian. With all 18 greens redone, and the sequence of holes dramatically altered, that course is sadly no longer intact in my view.  

I gotta see Kawartha soon.

[Mike_Sweeney]

The Ross routing at Wianno on Cape Cod is basically the same:

"Ross did not keep detailed records of his work until later in his career, so there are no known plans for the Wianno course. Because Ross had inspected Seapuit and was present for the work at Oyster Harbors, his presence in Osterville in the early 1920s is documented. How many visits he made during the design and construction of Wianno, and for its upkeep, will probably never be known, but former Wianno golf-shop employee Bill Cotter remembers accompanying Ross in the 1930s during an inspection of the fourth hole.
The routing of the course remains as Ross laid it out. Two significant changes were that No. 14 was originally a par-4 of 325 yards, with the green situated nearly to the current maintenance building, while No. 15 was just 335 yards, with the tee box slightly forward and to the left of the current ladies' tees."

[Steve Curry]

I don't know, but am told that Somerset is the best example of unadulterated Tillie?

Steve

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

I think the original routing and 18 original green surfaces qualifies as relatively intact these days. Don't you think?

I bet there are none.

The only Thompson course that may fit the bill is Jasper or one of the (9 hole) northern Ontario mining community courses. I do not work with a single Thompson course (out of around 20), that does not have a rebuild green.

[Robert Thompson]

I think a better question is how many courses even have intact routings from the original design. I don't think there are many of those either.

Ian -- do any of the Travis courses have intact routings? How about Thompson?

[wsmorrison]

Flynn's routing of RGGC is completely intact.  The 16th green has been remodeled in a poor fashion.  I'd say the routing at Huntingdon Valley A and B and Shinnecock Hills are intact as well.  

By the way, if the same architect(s) were making changes over a long period of time, I would consider it original to the architect in any case.  So I would consider Merion intact as well.

[Ian Andrew]

Intact routings - no greens relocated

-Banff
-Cataraqui
-Kawartha
-Capilano
-Highland GL

Travis

CC of Scranton (only first hole straightened due to new nine)

All the rest have holes moved

Re Lookout: (16,17,18 all altered) 16 played to 17 green as a long five. 18 dogleged right into the valley on the right (green is still there in trees). The lost hole was in the range playing to the chipping green (still there). Played as 7 , 8 and 9.