Hogan and green speeds in the 50s

[Doug Siebert]

There's an interesting article here with Tommy Bolt, and one of the things he claims is that green speeds at Oakland Hills, Oakmont and Olympic were every bit as fast then as they were today.  Apparently Hogan was great on the fast greens but couldn't putt the slow greens most courses had.  If only he were born 60 years later he might be cleaning up today!

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/print/0,18068,613135,00.html

[Mark_Guiniven]

Doug if you've got Geoff Shackelford's 'Masters Of The Links' the Pete Dye essay "the evolution of green speeds' might interest you. Dye actually attempted to measure speeds off old US Open film and, from memory, concluded the downhill putts on dry, grainy greens were really quick but the uphill ones into the grain were really slow.

[BCrosby]

When asked a year ago about the green speeds at Oakmont in '62, the year he beat Palmer in the US Open, Nicklaus said he was shocked by how fast the greens were. The whole field was stunned, he said.

He thought they were at about 6 or 6.5.

From old films I've seen, I tend to think Nicklaus is closer to the mark.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Pete Dye's study was for real, but it said those greens at Oakmont were about 8 or 8.5 on the Stimpmeter.  Nicklaus is exaggerating downward to make a point -- he tends to do that because he knows no one will argue with him.

It IS possible that conditions at some courses were more severe in the early days ... I was thinking the Jones era rather than the Hogan era ... before irrigation systems were common.  In droughty years the greens would just get really thin and they could get very fast, too.  Jones lamented in 1958 that The Old Course was nowhere near as fast a surface (through the green) as he remembered it from his competitive days.  Of course, it's human nature for older players to remember how much tougher it was back in their day, but I'd bet that was less the case for Jones than for most.

(Remember, too, that it's Tommy Bolt saying the greens were faster in Hogan's day.  It would mean a lot more if Hogan had said it.)

[JESII]

(Remember, too, that it's Tommy Bolt saying the greens were faster in Hogan's day.  It would mean a lot more if Hogan had said it.)

Why's that Tom?

[Joel_Stewart]

(Remember, too, that it's Tommy Bolt saying the greens were faster in Hogan's day.  It would mean a lot more if Hogan had said it.)

Why's that Tom?

Because Hogan was a little more creditable than Tommy Bolt.

I doubt Olympic was faster in 1955 than today?  In 1955 and prior, the clubs where in charge on conditioning for the US Open and not the USGA.  Although the weather was good during the week of the Open, the maintance and equipment were not able to cut the greens in the manner they do now.

[Troy Alderson]

To give everyone a reference to today's green speeds.  At the golf course I manage we have a Pro/Am in early March.  The grass is just starting to green up from the winter and I am still cutting at my winter height (3/16").  All we do for the Pro/Am is cut the greens and the Pro and I determine whether to double cut or roll to increase speeds more.  The irrigation system is OFF and will not turn on for another month or so.  The winter has distributed the moisture levels in the soil very evenly and the grass is barely growing in March.  At 3/16" HOC the greens are rolling over 10 feet and everyone is happy with the roll of the greens.

When the irrigation system is turned on to replace deficiencies of rain, the grass starts growing and the green speeds slow down dramatically.  My typical green speeds during the summer months are 8 feet.  The water comes on and the green speeds slow down.

The amount of water (and the type of grass) are THE determining factors in green speeds.  To increase the speed of the greens, shut off the water and apply only enough to keep the grass alive not green.  Back in Hogan's day, greens were cut at about 1/4" (but don't quote me on that).  And yet the golf courses were drier overall compared to today.  American golf must get away from high fertilizer treatments and heavy watering for the color green.  

Focusing on the color green and demanding it, the superintendent is "forced" into overwaterng, over fertilizing, and cutting the turf too low.  This is like living off McD hamburgers for every meal, taste great and your happy but your health is terrible.  The hardest thing for a superintendent to do IMHO is to turn the water off.

Troy Alderson, GCS

[JESII]

Way to go Troy, that post will get very much support on this board. How about at your course?

[Gary_Mahanay]

Troy,

What's the annual rainfall in Madras, OR.?  Pretty wet in winter and spring?  What kind of soils make up your greens?

Gary

[Troy Alderson]

Gary and JES,

I am located in the high desert of central Oregon.  We average about 11 inches of rain per year and the reference ET averages 0.14 inches per day.  My soils are heavy clay since the golf course is located in a river canyon caused by the great flood thousands of years ago.  I unfortunately have not beem able to practice what I preach though I try to as much as possible.  I know what it takes, but getting the golfers and managers of the golf course to listen has not gone well.

I do believe that golfers want what we are talking about here, but they still equate green with healthy turf and that is just not true.  Living on the edge with the turf is difficult when the equipment is unreliable.  We must educate golfers and the those in charge of golf courses about proper conditioning and that dormant (brown) turf is not dead.

Troy

[JESII]

Still curious about the Bolt / Hogan comments, what makes Hogan more credible than Bolt when discussing green speeds of the 40's and 50's as compared to today?


p.s. Troy, just don't forget what you believe right now. At some point you'll be able to put it into full practice and it will have been worth the time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

One look at old tapes of The Masters will demonstrate that those green speeds on Bermuda were far slower.

Much of green speed is dependent upon the location, time of year, micro climates and preparation.

I don't ever recall green speeds in the 50's and 60's in the 10 to 13 range, unless it was when we were putting on a frozen pond.

[David_Tepper]

JES II -

After reading the entire Bolt interview, I feel safe in saying that he is not adverse to engaging in a little hyperbole to make a point. He also asserted that Arnold Palmer was able to make half of his putts from 40 feet. Should we believe that as well?

I would take much of what he says, whether it is about green speeds or teaching Weiskopf all about golf, with a fairly large grain of salt.

In fact, based upon what I have read, I would not treat everything Hogan is quoted as saying as the gospel either. If he was not in a good mood or did not like the reporter interviewing him, Hogan was not beyond being argumentative or contradictory just out of spite. It seemed like he almost took pride in not revealing himself or his opinions to any but his closest friends and associates.      

DT

[PThomas]

But Patric:  generally speaking, did greens have (lots?) more slope in them in the 50s and 60s, which "makes up" for their lower stimp readings?

[JESII]

David_Tepper,

I guess that was my point.

Believe me, I was not saying the guy that threw his driver at a carp because the carp was intentionally screwing with him spews the gospel. I just wouldn't say either one of them lacks credibility, everyone knows Hogans record, but in his day Tommy Bolt was a top tier player.

I was only able to read the first half of the interview, but I'll get back to the rest shortly. I thought it was pretty funny.

[Tom_Doak]

JES II:  I went back and re-read the initial post, and I had not read it quite right ... I thought Bolt had invoked Hogan to make his story sound more credible, which I was saying, is not the same as Hogan actually having said something about the speed of greens.  I don't have anything against Tommy Bolt, who was a great player and a very colorful guy.  And Hogan said so little about conditions or architecture or anything that I can't really comment about whether he understood the subject well.

[JESII]

Fair enough, thanks Tom.
Pretty interesting article regardless.

[ForkaB]

What a GREAT interview!  Where are the Tommy Bolts of today....

[Patrick_Mucci]

But Patric:  generally speaking, did greens have (lots?) more slope in them in the 50s and 60s, which "makes up" for their lower stimp readings?

Paul, there's no question that contours and slopes were more prevalent in the 50's and 60's.

It's unfortunate that many of them have been altered to accomodate higher speeds, and it's even more unfortunate that both the trend to continue to alter them, (read flatten) and the trend NOT to build them continue.

When you remove the "character" you lessen the fun and challenge of the game.

Taken to an extreme, increasing green speeds and flattening greens will result in the USGA approving pool cues for use on the greens.[/color]

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Similar concerns apply to fairway heights. The tighter you cut fairways, the more balls will run-off into rough or gather in low spots.

People then begin to complain that fairway slopes and contours are "unfair".  Next thing you know existing contouring is being smoothed out and new courses are built with LZ's that look like airport tarmacs.

Bob  

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

Sad, but true.

There's a trend amonst some to remove the character from the land in the name of fairness ..... or revenue.

[PThomas]

Patrick  - I agree with everything you say

I wonder "exactly" when and /or how it was determined that being able to putt superfast greens - acording to the Stimp - was a "better" test of a top-flite player v. slower-Stimping greens with more slope...what a shame

[Troy Alderson]

Gentlemen,

When it comes to the topic of slope and speed.  IMHO golf courses, that are managed as we would prefer, should post a sign at the clubhouse.  A big sign sharing the design philosophy of the golf course and why the greens have extreme slopes and the natural contours were kept to create a "true" challenge for the golfer.  Why the greens are cut higher and why the turf might be brown during the hot season.  That "this golf course" is to test your skills and make the you a better golfer.  What has happened is no different than ballparks shortening the fence to help hit homeruns or lowering the basketball hoop because a player cannot jump high enough to dunk.

How many of us know of difficult golf courses that the members clean up the Pro/Am tournaments at an easier golf course?  Golfers that have learned to keep the ball in the fairway of a tree lined golf course are able to win in tournaments where the members have sprayed the ball everywhere but the fairway.  (in general)

Strife builds character and challenging golf courses builds our golf abilities.  Life is not fair and neither is golf.  "This is the golf course and this is how we maintain it in the true fashion of classic golf".

Troy