Willie Park, Jr. renovations

[ET]

Anybody know who has done renovations or restorations of W. Park, Jr. courses?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Forse, Ron
Full Name: Ron Forse
Company: Forse Design Incorporated
89 Sutton Avenue Extension
Hopewood, PA  15445
Bus: (724) 438-1727
Bus Fax: (724) 438-0404
E-mail: forsedes@bellatlantic.net

[michael_j_fay]

Mark Mungeam renovated Olympia Fields for the 2002 US Open.

[mark chalfant]

I believe Bruce  Hepner is working on Shuttle Meadow in New Britain,  Ct.

Ron Forse/ Jim Nagle  have  done excellent work at Glen Ridge,NJ

[SPDB]

Apropos of this question - Has anybody been out to New Haven since Matt Burrows started there? I was so busy last summer, I didn't have a chance to get out there, and I've been out of touch with friends in the know.

After his work at NGLA, I would be very curious to hear a report.

[Robert Thompson]

Forse, Ron
Full Name: Ron Forse
Company: Forse Design Incorporated
89 Sutton Avenue Extension
Hopewood, PA  15445
Bus: (724) 438-1727
Bus Fax: (724) 438-0404
E-mail: forsedes@bellatlantic.net

Is this an advertisement or endorsement of Forse?

[Scott Witter]

Robert,

I'm surprised it took 4 posts for someone to say this...I was kinda wondering the same thing myself.  Guess Kelly doesn't need any more work or simply isn't interested in this type of work?

What you say you Kelly?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I don't understand the problem.  The gentleman asked for help and a passed along information that can be useful to his needs.

[Scott Witter]

Whoooaa there pardner...had a little too much coffee this am?

Based on your immediate response I would say you were anticipating some sort of similar reaction...just maybe?

Kelly, I support other fellow architects as well, especially if I am too busy, or honestly don't have the right experience, but you can't a guy for stating what might be the obvious.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Honest to God Scott I have no idea what your talking about, and I don't see anything negative about my previous response.  Is there something I am missing or violated here?  Please help me.

[Yannick Pilon]

Ian Andrew has done some renovation work at Laval-sur-le-lac here in Montreal.
Thomas McBroom has also worked on the Mount Bruno G.C., again, in Montreal.

I am also working on a renovation plan for Willie Park Jr.'s Islesmere G.C. which is just next door to Laval-sur-le-lac.

By the way, if anyone has info on Willie Park Jr's body of work or style, I would appreciate.  I am in the process of doing my master plan but there seems to be very little available in terms of pictures or litterature to explain his work.

I have till next spring until we actually build anything, but any info would help!

[Kyle Harris]

Yannick,

I've run into the same issues doing my PSU White Course research. Most of the pictures I've located are of Sunningdale (if only I could get the White Course bunkers to look like that someday!). Tom MacWood's Art and Crafts Golf articles have some Park bunker pictures.

[Scott Witter]

Okay Kelly,

Guess you got me, gee wizz,... huh, and I thought you were being serious all along, your just leading me on to see where this might go...come on now aren't you?

As I eluded, and in all sincerity, I have done the same thing before and I hope to someday have the right opportunity to refer your name.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Isn't Woodway a Willie Park course?  A lot of renovating was done there.

[ForkaB]

James Braid did a bit of renovation work on Park Jr.'s Burnstisland, but I don't think he's available today......

PS--those who are truly interested in this issue, please take Kelly's suggestion as it was offered--honestly and without any ulterior motives that I can see.  Childish sniping from the peanut gallery really does this site no favors.

[Scott Witter]

Rich,

I believe you have unfortunately missed the whole point.  You don't know me well enough to make a judgment regarding my posts with respect to when or when I am not serious.

However, If I have offended you, Ran or especially Kelly, I do apologise.

Guess I just took myself out the running for any Willie Park renovations in the near future huh?

BTW, I like almonds and pecans the best.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Woodway C.C. in Darien, Connecticut is indeed a WP, Jr. course...with additions by Cornish (Original routing: New #8th Green - Now #1 Black on the routing) and by John Harvey of Rulewich who designed a completely par 3 #9 to route the course back to the relocated clubhouse.  A lot of the confusion about Woodway and the renovations/restoration evolves from the renumbered and changed order of the holes.  Thus, the amount of renovations at Woodway are not as great as one would believe.

The other 16 holes are more or less Willie Park as laid out and opened in 1918.  (The Old #10/New #3 par 3 might have been altered slightly in adding a pond in the 50's or 60's).  The irrigation project and a redo of the bunkers in the '90's.

My opinion of a "Willie Park Style" as exemplified by Woodway would be:

1) Emphasis on putting with intricate greens that feature multiple tiering.  Woodway remains difficult to score on today due to the greens.

2) Sparse fairway bunkering with faces to prevent reaching the greens in regulation.  Generally, his bunkering style at Woodway was not flashy with the exception of a Rolling Stones type tongue bunker that is the central feature on the greenside bunker fronting #13.

3) Excellent use of hills in the routing by placing greens at the tops of them.  Besides the obvious central hill hosting two greens (New #6 & 10), WP, Jr. was able to pan drag/enlarge slight rises to accommodate green sites at new #18, #16, & #13.

A 1921 aerial photo of Woodway is located in the Men's Locker Room.  There were very few trees on the course back then as the club took its name from the Woodway Dairy Farm.

JWK

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

From the Achives:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17013

Another thread successfully killed with on topic opinion...

JWK

[ForkaB]

Scott

No offense.  Easy to misinterpret things over cyberspace.  Even I might have done it once or twice in my life, and I can't believe that you put almonds and pecans in the same sentence!

[Kelly Blake Moran]

No need for an apology Scott.  Now that I  think about it I remember we teamed up on a thread about "restoration architects",  I think it was you, and based upon that and other rants I have been sucked into maybe you thought I was trying to lead this thread somewhere beyond just my first, simple post.

[Scott Witter]

Rich,

Yes, the written word is powerful, we all need to be careful with it at times, I often see it as a privilege, but that is and can also be, the beauty of it as well.  Glad to see you "see" it my way.

Hey there James K., we are all reading your info and I personally found it to be quite infomative, sorry for the interuption... just needed to clean up a running thought.

Rich, actually now that you mention it, I don't think either almonds or pecans are "real" nuts...they don't grow underground!  How could I let that happen!

Cheers!

[Scott Witter]

Kelly,

I think you might be right about that past thread...don't get me started man!

I understood your point from the very start even before  posted.

Cheers to you too!

[JNagle]

Thanks for the nod Kelly.  We (Forse Design) are currerntly involved with four Park Jr. courses.

Calgary G & CC completed plan with restoration to begin in the fall of 06.

Glen Ridge C.C. (Glen Ridge, NJ) - just completed a complete restoration of the golf course with two rebuilt greens, 100+ bunkers, mounds, green expansions.......  Worth checking out (not from a restoration standpoint but to truly see the genius of Park and his green designs and contours.  This place is looked down upon because of road crossings and length but it truly is a great course because of Park and his greens).

Berkshire C.C. - (Reading, PA)  Master Plan with some changes being made over time.  An interesting course with good greens.  What stood out at Berkshire "were" the bunkers.  The old photos show very strategic features most of which do not exist, but the trees do now

New Haven C.C. - green and fariway expansions.  Just getting started with this club.  Ron has visited and said that the greens are also some of the best he has seen.  Matt Burrows is doing fine there.

In our studies of Park we have seen that his greens and green surround designs may exceed the designs of other great "Golden Age" guys.  The courses we are working on are typically shorter but that does not make them easier because his greens are pure genius.  Large swells, rolls, ridges, humps and subtle slopes that you swear are going this way but are in fact going that way.  I liken some of them to the work of Travis at Scranton.  

Much like Flynn, where there are fewer bodies of work to study I believe Park is not given as much credit as being a great designer.  If you study the photos of Maidstone (aerials) and Glen Ridge you see some wild bunker and mound combinations.  We were unsure if the Glen Ridge bunkers were Park until we did some investigating.  If I knew how we could post the photos.

[Willie_Dow]

Somewhere I heard that WPjr designed the original nine at New Bedford CC.  Ross adding nine.  Anyone know ?  Practically all records lost in clubhouse fire in the 40's I think.

[Robert Thompson]

Kelly and co: I guess I just think it is shortsighted to suggest one architect is the expert in Park's work. I have no doubt Forse and Mr. Nagle do nice work on Park's courses, but I haven't seen it yet, though I have played Calgary G &CC.
I guess I just think it is a little too forthright to throw out the name of Forse as being the leading Park expert. Is that really the case? In Canada, Doug Carrick's firm, and Ian Andrew specifically, have done work on a few Park courses, though I doubt Ian would call himself an expect in Park's work. Yannick is right in that Thomas McBroom's restoration of Mt. Bruno seems to be well regarded.
Maybe I'm wrong and Forse's crew have done dozens of Park courses, or maybe I'm correct in saying it is an overstatement to put one architect's work forward ahead of all others.
In the end, it was the way it was put out, without explanation, that bothered me. A line of two about why Forse is the guy for the job might not have hurt.