[SPDB]

monkey see, monkey do.  

Pat
Let's leave that exercise to you and Hamilton.

But, nevertheless, my original question remains unanswered.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Pat Mucci

All of the 'top' clubs around NYC smell of money. I guess that can't be avoided. Maidstone and GCGC are the only places I've been where they seem to make an effort to express this at least in their own ideosynctratic way. What I didn't like about Atlantic is the same as what I didn't like at Indian Creek or Hidden Creek (where I thought the styling of the clubhouse was quite awful) - they are rich men's havens. They make me feel poor, a gatecrasher. Most of the folk who visit or join are quite happy to have some guy clean their shoes for them. Coming from a pretty poor background, and having worked as golf club staff (waiter usually) through much of my teenage and college years, I tend to feel that I should do that myself, or it should be me doing the cleaning..

I have never had this feeling at Nairn or Ganton or Woking. So I guess the British class system has made it hard for me to enjoy golf in America. I'm much more comfortable at our 9 hole semi-private. I hope some of my comments will make more sense to you now.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

First to stay on topic briefly I have met Bob Ranum a few times and he has always been great fun, and from people I know in the business who have worked with him Bob probably has one of the best reputations in the industry.  Bill Shuford the super at Laurel Links came over from Atlantic, with a stop in between, and while he is his own man, I am pretty certain he is at at very high level in part due to Bob's influence, and Bill is at the top on my list.  

Now for Lloyd I grew up in West Texas at Odessa Country Club, and at one time in the 60's and 70's that area per capita was probably the wealthiest in the country because of the oil industry and the club was a pretty laid back affair.  I reemeber attending a greens meeting in Houston at a private club and the first hour was spent on the disgust they had for people changing shoes in the parking lot, and I laughed because people changed clothes in parking lot at OCC!!  We played football in the fall next to the practice putting green, and we shot off our own fire works on the practice tee on July 4th.  There were a lot more ways that the club seemed different then what you described encountering, but I understand your points.

[James Edwards]

I was at Atlantic back in August 2002, and thought the bunkering along with the general look of the course was exceptional..  I especially liked the proximity of the roughs to the tee complexes and Im a great fan of square cut tees if time permits in the maintenance regime.

After being at Maidstone, SH and NGLA as well, the condition of Atlantic stood out for my money although its architecture wasnt as inspiring as the others in general.

[Joel_Stewart]

Someone posted a few months ago all of the work done at Atlantic since the begining.  It was quite long, detailing the changes.  Does anyone have it again?

[ed_getka]

James,
   Was the architecture uninspiring or the land itself?

For those who know the course well, what are the internal green contours like in general?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lloyd Cole,

When a new course is designed and built, and seeking members, do you feel that a minimal or modest facility will help attract them ?

Or, do prospective members want nice men's and women's locker rooms, eating areas, etc., etc.. ?

If a facility is built that can't adequately service the membership, why join ?

New clubs don't skimp on maintainance facilities for equipment and staff, why should they skimp on facilities for their members ?

I wonder if the clubhouses to the courses you mention were modern facilities fully able to serve their members when they first opened up.

I've always viewed Atlantic's clubhouse as very low key.


SPDB,

You know the answer.

And, if you really don't, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you, because, you should know the answer after tuning into GCA.com for more than a few years.

"Monkey see, Monkey do" is more apt than you realize.

Certain clubs are "role models' and copycatted by many other clubs.  ANGC, PV, NGLA, SH, Oakmont and others fall into the "role model" category.

Ed Getka,

The greens all have some good tilt to them with the added feature of internal contouring and tiers.

# 1 for example has a subtle ridge running through it.
When the greens are at "pace" the internal features combined with the slope can play havoc on approaches, recovery and putting.

Likewise # 17 has a mound or ridge runing through the green, in addition to the tilt, that places a huge premium on the approach shot into this relatively short hole.

# 6 has an incredible bowl at the right midpoint of the green that can reward or severely punish a careless or misplayed approach, recovery or putt.

The only green without internal contouring would probably be
#'s  4, 10 and 11, but they still have varying amounts of pitch, and # 11 might qualify for the most subtle of contours.

When the greens are firm and fast, which is often, and the breeze is up, which is often, it's a highly challenging test, where being below the hole is paramount.  

[George Pazin]

It's interesting that so many complain that all "we" care about are the look of a bunker, yet so many in the industry put a great deal of time into creating bunker looks of any sort. The look of the bunkers is more compelling than other photos I've seen of Atlantic, so it seems as though the accolades are deserved. I'd rather see a greenkeeper tinker with the look than the placement. Seems as though Bobby Raynum is wise, in addition to being eminently capable.

Can anyone think of a similar course of Atlantic's stature that has had so many routing changes? It's actually kind of a compliment of sorts, that the routing could even accomodate so many changes.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Pat Mucci

Clearly you didn't spend too long reading my last post. Which is no crime. I was attempting to bridge the gap between my sensibility which developed in post WWII, socialist government UK and tends to regard public displays of wealth as crass, and tasteless, with the heart on my sleeve American Dream come true culture that I see in much American Golf.  I have no comment on what nascent clubs should or shouldn't do to attract members, clearly I am not in the mainstream. I never suggested I was, I hope.. All I said was I don't like that. I didn't suggest you should agree, clearly we come from opposing corners, and it isn't even a suitable matter for debate.
And, if you weren't simply being contrary - what I would like from a club house is - modest, clean, efficient and friendly. And no bag drop. I can dream.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lloyd Cole,

Actually, I did take the time to carefully read the post you referenced.

You feel that ALL of the "TOP CLUB" in the NYC area, whomever they may be, and, it might be helpful if you named some, "smell of money".  I don't feel that way, but, that's just my view.

And, I'm not trying to be contrarian.

Your perspective seems rooted in your past, to the degree that it seems that you have a chip on your shoulder upon entering the club's grounds.

I've always tried to treat people as I've found them.
And, the staff at Atlantic has always been exceedingly cordial to me.

In all the clubs I've been to, their structure, simple or eloborate, glitzy or elegant, new or old, has had little to do with the most important of elements that you mention.
"Friendliness"

As I said earlier, when you're a guest and treated as a member that's the critical factor.   And, at Atlantic and many other courses I've been fortunate enough to visit, I've felt welcome.  However, not all courses project that feeling, and some have modest, clean and efficient clubhouses, with no bag drop.

Membership and management create the atmosphere, not the brick and mortar.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Pat Mucci

I'm sorry Pat. I've spent quite a long time trying to breach the gap between our perceptions. But it is not getting anywhere. One man's meat, etc.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lloyd Cole,

We seem to have different perceptions, which is OK.

Let's get back to the golf course and not peripheral issues.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Pat Mucci

Agreed, so long as there is no bag drop involved.

[Donnie Beck]

I haven't been out to Atlantic to see the bunker work yet, but I can tell you it is amazing that Bobby got any work done at all after what he has been through this year. One thing I can assure you about Atlantic is you will not find better conditions anywhere!!! BAR NONE!!!! I owe much of what I know about grass growing to Bobby. He is THE MASTER of firm and fast!

[paul cowley]

...yo Lloyd...welcome to 'our' world.

p ;)ul

[James Edwards]

Ed,

Thanks

It wasnt the topography of the place as I thought that was the strongest feature of the course, I suppose i thought the architecture was just a little confused (if thats the right word) in places with regards to the styles of bunkering and the routing around the clubhouse.  It is interesting to hear that the routing numbers have changed in a previous post -  Maybe that helps my point...


Im struggling to remember the original numbering around the turn but the 'then' par 3 11th?  I believe, pictured on page 1, is a good example of bunkering which for my money just doesnt fit with most of the other holes.  Many would say that this is advantageous and shows variety...  

The view from the 1st tee towards the 12th?  suggests another complete change in bunkering style... and then the 1st itself has numerous bunkers - i remember down a side which suggests another clear design intent on behalf of the architect.

I have over 150 pictures of the place from 2002 so I would love to post a few via someone if theyd do that for me.

There was a lot happenening at Atlantic when I visited, the place had the most incredible colour variations - deep greens on the fairways, beach yellows for the roughs and white sand in abundance - it was a spectacle, but diluted the architecture a great deal

[Alex_Wyatt]

Re: Rees generally and Atlantic particularly.

Problems:
Bland visually. Holes hard to distinguish from each other.  Bobby R's work certainly helps solve this.

Manufactured look.
Bobby R's work helps this a bit too. The problem is the mounding will still look very artificial, but at least the "Rees' pieces" problem will be solved.

Lack of strategic interest.
If he is moving some bunkers, this could be helpful on this score as well.  There is not much to think about as far as shot placement and options at Atlantic, so this could be quite helpful.

I agree that its generally in great shape.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If there's no strategic interest, how did Atlantic get rated in the TOP 100 ?

I'd like to know how people can say the holes are similar.

Could someone describe the similarity in the first nine holes ?

The last nine hole ?

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