Golf Magazine 10 courses you can play

[Craig Sweet]

Matt Ward...how refreshing it would be to see the editors of Golf and Golf Digest, and any of the other "magazines" out there that are devoted to golf,spend some time and pages singing the praises of golf for golfs sake on the type of course the vast majority of golfers play day in and day out.

A feature article on the 9 holers along Montana's HiLine...US Route 2...would be interesting reading.  By the way, all are reachable via Amtrak...

Or perhaps a story on flyfishing and golf in Montana that does not begin at Old Works and finish at The Stock Farm?

Its funny, but most golfers could care less about golf course architecture and playing the Top 100 courses, yet all of them enjoy reading about their "home course".

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Being in the magazine business myself -- I can say that it would not surprise me if the sole motivation for certain courses being selected is tied to the deep pockets they possess for advertising / marketing and the like.

No doubt the line between advertorial / editorial is one that magazines face each and every day.

I do agree with you that it would be long overdue for the magazines of national standing to highlight those courses that don't require a second mortgage to play. Old Works is just one prime example where that happens. But the issue is not just highlighting "cheap" golf -- it's about also illuminating where the gems of architectural distinction are also present.

Combining those two categories together is what magazines of national prominence should be doing on a periodic basis. Digest does do that with its "best new" affordable listing. The one for '05 should be coming out in the next few weeks.

Craig -- I think where your emphasis lies is on cheap alternatives. A number of the folks tuning to GCA no doubt value keeping dollars in their pockets whenever possible but not if the option is to play golf courses where nothing of uniqueness in the design arena is present. I don't need to trek to Montana to play ordinary and inexpensive golf -- I can do that in my "neck of the woods" here in Jersey.

Like I said more words could be written in regards to what the Mountain Time Zone provides in the quality golf options that exist. Golf Magazine missed the boat in not including the likes of Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY as just one clear example.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I don't need to trek to Montana to play ordinary and inexpensive golf -- I can do that in my "neck of the woods" here in Jersey.

Matt,

Can you please list the last 10 courses and dates that you have played in New Jersey, and how much you have paid for those green fees?

Thanks

[Craig Sweet]

I started this thread with two thoughts in mind...First, to draw attention to the absudity of Golf suggesting that these were "10 Courses You Can Play", when their average reader will rarely, if ever, shell out $100-$500 for a round of golf.

The second reason was to spark some debate about the direction golf might be headed as greeen fees soar and exclusiveness becomes more common.  I sited the example of skiing which has priced itself out of reach for a lot of people,became a leisure activity nominated by "corporte" owners, and has seen declining numbers for the last 25 years. All of which has led to the disappearance of hundreds of ski hills in New England alone.

Does a similar fate await golf?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Sweeney:

I played in '05 the following county-owned facilities in New Jersey and paid the non-county fee each time. There were other rounds at assorted private and CCFAD layouts as well.

Hominy Hill
Howell Park
Charleston National (36 holes)
Overpeck
Heron Glen
Spooky Brook
Quail Brook
Darlington
Rockleigh
Mercer Oaks (36 holes)

Mike -- would you like to know what I ate when at each club too?

[RJ_Daley]

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/devilsthumb.html

What does Whitten have to do to get you guys to listen to him.  He is shouting here about great affordable golf.

Rick, and I know you are lurking  Congrats!  I am ashamed of myself that I haven't gotten out there to enjoy DT yet.  Maybe on my spring NE swing, next year.

[George Pazin]

So, Craig, you don't see any connection between the technology you love and the increasing cost of the game?

 

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

Glad you mentioned Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO. Frankly, I think the course has more strategic elements than nearby (50 miles north) Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction which is often touted as one of America's finest public courses. Too bad Golf Magazine didn't mention it when it first opened as a choice worth seeing.

I do like Redlands Mesa but it's not among the top 30 public courses in the USA from the ones I have played.

Devil's Thumb is well done by Rick Phelps and frankly if you have the time and effort you should trek to Falcon, CO (Just outside Colorado Springs) you can play one of his newest efforts in Antler Creek -- which is well done even though it's routed through a massive housing site.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, thanks for the info.  I must say that your depth of experiences and enthusiasm for courses in the mountain time zone is a great source of info for your readers to access.  I might see your assessment of something I've seen slightly different, like Sutton Bay, yet you do provide plenty of insight for readers to ponder, pardner...

I was posting the article to bolster the point that there still is an effort being made out there to build and provide good affordable golf.  Yet, I am also in complete agreement with Craig's sentiment on this subject.  I understand his emphasis on trying to compare the ski industry decline of participants and the rise of pricing there to the golf industry picture.

But, there are still developers and upcoming archies, it seems, that begin their vision with the concept in mind of building a great new course to attract attention of the magazine's "best new affordable", with pricing under $50.  While as you know, I really don't care  much for rankings-methods in general, the prospect of making the "best new affordable" is still a great incentive.

Of course, some of the new offerings in the last several years were 1rst year priced on a low ball basis to sneak in under the wire to garner that best new affordable attention, but due to actual investment costs, had to hike the prices right after their year of eligibility.  But, it is the incentive that a category of "best new affordable" exists, that keeps things from really spiralling out of control, as Craig rightly points out as a trend for "courses you can play" which in economic reality for most folks, isn't really accurate.

[Garland Bayley]

For me there is a big difference between skiing and golf. In skiing, I avoid the cheaper ski areas. There is a lack of interesting and new slopes to ski. They were interesting when I started, but now that I can put myself anywhere I want to on the slope, that is not true anymore.

However, I do seek out lower cost golf alternatives. Even my home course continues to provide interesting challenges. I can play it everyday and not get bored. I can also compete there with my handicap, which I can't at a cheap ski area.

[Craig Sweet]

George, I think blaming the "increased cost" of golf on the new technology is the biggest STRAW MAN in years!

Garland, very good, challenging ski hills were abundant through out New England 30 years ago. In my home state of Vermont the ski scene is now dominated by 3 or 4 corporate ski resorts while a hundred or so smaller hills (where the locals skied, by the way) have disappeared.

If I said to you where in Vermont would you go skiing you would probably point to Killington, or Stowe...Sugarbush or maybe Mt Snow...30 years ago you might have named 25 or 30 ski hills.

Will the same be true for golf? Thirty years from now if I ask you were would you golf in Oregon and you say Bandon or Pronghorn...would I learn that yes, those are two of the maybe 12 remaining courses?

[Craig Sweet]

RJ...the argument that is often used to argue that "technology" has added to the cost of golf is longer hitters = longer courses=more land needed = greater land costs. One big problem with that argument is ALL LAND is going up in price and that is the cost of doing business. The second problem with that argument is the actual acres used for a 7500 yard course is not that much greater than a 6800 yard course. And lastly, there are hundreds of examples of very challenging, very interesting, 6000-6500 yard courses in the world. Many are highlighted on this web site.

The biggest problem is people demand "more". "More" costs money. "More" is never cheap.

When people see "more" on TV golf coverage, or in golf magazines, they want "more". Yet they have very little idea what it takes to give them "more" and even less idea where a constant demand for "more" will ultimately lead.

[Tom_Doak]

Craig Sweet:

Wall to wall cart paths - $500,000
State of the art irrigation system - $2,000,000

These are the two biggest examples of developers wanting "more" in a new golf course.  Right there is $25 a round in green fees [or let's say $15 a round, since you probably have to have SOME irrigation for the course to survive].  I've done several courses without such big numbers in these categories, and they're all doing fine, but most developers would think I was an idiot to even mention the possibility.  Then again, I manage to live my life without an iPod, too.  My point is that you're right, it's not all about technology and land costs, it's about modern American culture.

However, I still think you are barking up the wrong tree.  There is plenty of affordable golf out there, and it will continue to get more affordable if courses have trouble selling rounds of golf as you suggest.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom I hope it does become more affordable!

Regarding affordable courses, yes, they are pleniful now. Affordable skiing was plentiful as well back in the 60's and the 70's...as I have posted here, nearly every town in our northern climates had a ski hill. Most have disappeared as consumer tastes, the ski industry, and economics changed.

Where do you see golf being 30 years from?

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Generally speaking -- the Mountain Time Zone will continue as one of the best places to play for quality public access courses and that includes the fee equation.

Why?

The acquisitoin costs for land are far cheaper than major metro areas and the overall process for getting such courses on board is not as challenging from a permit process level.

Public access courses in those remote locations need to ATTRACT players and price is clearly a big part of that equation.

Take a gander at Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY. It's located right off I-80 but because it's in Rawlins it cannot throw forward high green fee costs comparable to ones in and around the immediate Denver area. If they did it's quite likely few might entertain the adventure to get there.

The same thing applies to places like Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO, Red Rock in Rapid City, SD, and The Hideout in Monticello, UT, to name just two other examples.

Clearly, being in the MTZ has its downside because the proximity of these courses is quite far apart from your front door. Nonetheless, the quality public courses are slowly beginning to come forward and "the end of golf / earth" thoughts you have professes I don't see happening to the level you have indicated. Maybe it's because I'm somewhat of an optimist given the nature how the golf market is now responding than in earlier times.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's the link to the article:

www.golfonline.com/golfonline/travel/ranked/article/0,17742,1135718,00.html


This is about NEW courses recently opened.

[cary lichtenstein]

link no work

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Cary

Try this:

http://tinyurl.com/b4mxg

Most of the courses have been previously mentioned here at GCA:

Bandon Trails

Sandia in NM

Reunion(Watson) in Orlando

Silver Rock (Palmer) in LaQuinta

Lake of Isles North (Rees Jones) in CT

Lansdowne (Norman) in VA

Marquette GC Greywalls (DeVries)

Bridges at Black Canyon (Nicklaus Design) in Montrose, CO

Wynn GC

The only unknown one,at least to me, is Jewel GC (Irwin) in Lake City, MN

www.jewelgolfclub.com


Steve

[Michael Plunkett]

I drive, on purpose,  past two golf course on the way to work- a private and a local muni.

The private is almost always under played- a litltle on Monday, when it is closed and plenty on weekend mornings- not much after noon.

The muni is always crowded- 36 walk  51 cart.  

But who wants to build a muni?

[Craig Sweet]

I was talking to a guy the other day about the new Schmidt/Curley course in East Missoula. MT...I was excited about having another course in town, even though it is competition for the course where I work....so I said to the guy, I hear the greens fee will be around $35 bucks, and he said, "well, I won't be playing there, $35 for golf is too much."

Crazy...

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