Turf 101

[Don_Mahaffey]

Craig,
Bend is all about green is good resort golf, if that's what you mean by "get away" with deep, infrequent.

For me, it's been an education with my ownership to "buy in" to a firmer playing surface. The only way I'm allowed to do that is by also keeping it very green so I irrigate every other night in high summer and every third in spring and fall, and I spray a lot of iron to keep things green. Our turf was sick last year, it's a lot better this year and I'm expecting continued improvement.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Donnie, Don et al,

Re Root depths; Is 16 inches the magic number to gaurantee tolerance to severe adversity, avoiding the netted smelt? And does this imply that courses that don't have the capacity to "go deep" cannot follow nature as closely and therefore tend to have to over-water ?


Also Re Fischers; what grass is on the greens?

[Craig Sweet]

Don, no, I was talking about the turf itself, and the dry air/warm temps. How do you get away with infrequent deep watering.

What time does the irrigation come on and finish?

Is every other day irrigating about the best you can get away with or could you go longer between running your system...2 days, 3 days???

[Eric_Dorsey]

are greens these days built to USGA specifications?   and if not...why do they even have those recomendations on they're website.

I want to put in a putting green and need to know if I should use the USGA specs or a simpler method.  I'm in the Big D', where it's hot, hot, hot.

thanks - I'll hang up and listen for your answer.  

[S. Huffstutler]

Here's a Southern turf question:

What is the experience with the new Champion hybrid for greens vs Tifdwarf?

This is on the Gulf Coast, no overseeding for winter.

While not being in the same class as the Don's, I did switch from Tifdwarf to Champion this summer. There really is no comparison, the Champion is so much better that it is hard to believe. It is very dense, upright and a pretty fast grass. I am still learning water management with it, it doesn't recover from drying as quickly as Tifdwarf. It responds very well to Primo and doesn't seem to need a whole lot of N, but it is bermuda, so some N is required. It responds very well to high K and Mg.

Steve

[ForkaB]

"Tom,
It all comes down to Roots and Carbohydrate reserves."

Is that really all there is to it? Are you absolutely sure about that? I don't know what carbohydrates are but what if we coated our grass with a liberal reserve of dead smelt emulsion? Do you think that could possibly give us 16" Roots?

Tom

If you want to get 16" roots you need to reply to those e-mails that come in every day offering penal architectural extensions, or something like that....

Donny

Thanks for the great thread.  It's always enjoyable to read posts from people who know what they are talking about!  I'm interested in what grasses you have too, as I think that if others could do a better job of creating gathering bunker surrounds, golf in the US would be much the better for it.  At most seaside courses here in Scotland they seem to be able to cut them even lower, even at the height of summer, probably under 1", although I've never measured them.  All I know is that if you hit the ball anywhere near a bunker it will probably go in it, and if on your attempt at recovery you don't get it far enough out, it will probably come back in again.  Now that's golf!

[Don_Mahaffey]

Steve,
Why Champion? Just curious why you picked Champion over eagle and mini verde.
Thanks,
Don

[Donnie Beck]

Adam,

16” isn't some sort of magical number. It just happens to be our root depth in the summer months. I am sure grass would survive a drought with far less roots.  I am a believer in deep infrequent watering. Just because you have an irrigation system doesn’t mean you have to run it every night. Grass roots will only grow as deep as they have to. If you are watering on a light frequent basis the water will never fill the entire root zone resulting in shallow root system. By water deep and infrequent the entire profile gets saturated and dries from top to bottom. As the upper profile dries out the roots will go deeper following the water.
As far as grasses on our greens we have a hodge podge of grasses. We have a lot of poa, seaside, seaside II, astoria, some velvets. Recently I have been seeding some L93 and A4 into them as well although trying to establish the newer varieties is more wishful thinking than anything. The new seedlings have very little chance of out competing the older established grasses. If I get a 2-3% catch each year that would be an accomplishment.

[Donnie Beck]

Rich,

We don't really have any reason to cut our banks any shorter. With the depth and slope of Raynor's banks we have no problems with the balls releasing in to the traps at that height.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Donnie

2 1/2 " is 1.5X the diameter of the golf ball.  Them slopes must be pretty dang steep!

[TEPaul]

Since this is a course in Turf 101 would you guys also list what Nitrogen (N), K and Mg (magnesium) and whatever other minerals you all use in golf agronomy actually accomplishes with plant life. A brief description of the subject of Ph, liming etc would be helpful as well. For instance, someone from Rolling Green said he'd heard from their new super that the Ph on Rolling Greens greens were absolutely all over the map. How does something like that happen? Who forgot to do what, in other words?  

[Micah Woods]

Tom,

There are a suite of essential plant nutrients, and in short a mineral element must meet three criteria to be classified as essential:

1) a given plant cannot complete its life cycle in the absence of the element
2) the function of the element is not replaceable by another mineral element
3) the element must be directly involved in plant metabolism

There are 14 well-established essential nutrients, and nitrogen is the one required by plants in the greatest concentration. Turfgrass is managed by applying less nitrogen than is necessary to achieve maximum growth, and therefore turfgrass almost always responds to nitrogen applications with more rapid growth and a greener appearance. Because nitrogen is the limiting factor in many situations of turfgrass growth, there are often ample amounts of the other essential nutrients available in the soil to meet the plants’ requirements. However, other nutrients are applied to ensure that they are available, especially in situations when the chemical or physical properties of the rootzone may inhibit nutrient availability.

The pH is the measure of the hydrogen ion activity. Pure water has a pH of 7. Samples with pH < 7 are more acidic, and samples with pH > 7 are more alkaline. Agricultural lime is calcium carbonate, and application of calcium carbonate to an acid system will raise the pH. Mineral nutrient solubility in soil solution is optimized at pH between roughly 5.5 and 7, and for that reason agricultural fields are usually limed to a pH within that range in order to maximize crop yield. With turfgrass, the rootzone pH is usually adjusted to 6 or 6.5 to maximize nutrient solubility in soil solution. However, although grass species respond differently to soil pH, a grass such as creeping bentgrass can produce a good playing surface across a wide range of pH, from less than 5 to about 8.5.

-Micah

[RJ_Daley]

Eric Dorsey, do yourself a favor and don't try to build your own home live turf putting green.  Put in an artificial one.  There are plenty of artificial ones to offer you a reasonable practice surface to put and chip.  

I often think of the folks that want to build a real turf putting green are like the children that nag their parents about a pet rabbit or other such animal, then never take care of the poor thing.  Being in Dallas climate is all the more reason not to try to maintain a real turf green at home.  Many pros have artificial putting greens at home, and they will mostly tell you that it serves the purpose for practice well enough.

[Mike McGuire]

Donnie - or anyone else

Could you help me understand the differences here. I am intersted in the different maint. methods for firmer,  healthier turf with less chemicals/ water etc.  

Do these two opposite irrigation concepts accomplish the same thing?

Adam,

  I am a believer in deep infrequent watering. Just because you have an irrigation system doesn’t mean you have to run it every night. Grass roots will only grow as deep as they have to. If you are watering on a light frequent basis the water will never fill the entire root zone resulting in shallow root system. By water deep and infrequent the entire profile gets saturated and dries from top to bottom. As the upper profile dries out the roots will go deeper following the water.

From The feature interview with Scott Anderson

"The topic of water use deserves some attention. My philosophy is to never water the soil. Deep watering is avoided. I have found that the turf does just fine with just enough water for the day and periodic syringes as needed. This approach keeps playing conditions firm and fast, keeps water related problems down like saturated soils, root rots, diseases, wet wilts, accelerated growth, and fertilizer requirements."

[A_Clay_Man]

Donnie, Thanx for that. I asked about the greens because if you did have poa, and were considering covering the greens in the winter, it may accelerate the poa spread.

Mike, There does seem to be a problem with Scott's description.  

And Thanx to Micah. That was almost like being a pupil again. I do have one question.

If the soil has a higher Ph how do you lower it?

And how do Salts enter into the picture? Maybe that should be saved for  turf 401?

[Donnie Beck]

Mike,

I am not 100% sure what Scott is doing, but from I understand is he is ONLY putting down enough water for the plant to survive. He is not watering the soils at all. His practices are very sound as far as playing conditions and diease management. I am a little concerned about the root system, but maybe by keeping the soils dry the plants are still rooting looking for more water. Whatever the case he has been doing it for a long time and it seems to be working wonderfully.

[Bill_McBride]

Steve, where are you located?  Interested to see if you're in the same zone as Pensacola.

I have heard - thru the grapevine of course - that Champion is much more difficult to maintain and more prone to problems.  In this climate nothing is easy but growing Bermuda.  In your experience, is this the case?

Transition won't be a problem, we won't be overseeding.

Thanks.

[Donnie Beck]

I have been doing more thinking about Scott's practices I am am curious to know what kind of soils he is dealing with. I am thinking that he probably has a heavy soil that holds a lot of water so by only watering the plant he is keeping firm conditions as well as lowering the diease pressure with his approach. It is a very intersting concept, but I would be willing to bet almost anything he doesn't have very sandy soils.

[Micah Woods]

Adam,

Application of elemental sulfur is the most common method for reducing soil pH. Nitrogen fertilizers and iron fertilizers usually have an acidifying effect as well.

Soils with pH above about 7.6 tend to have some quantity of calcium carbonate (lime) in the soil. This calcium carbonate serves as a buffer against changes in pH, so one doesn't usually try to make wholesale changes to soil pH in that case. Sometimes the irrigation water will be acidified in an attempt to modify the pH close to the soil surface.

Salts cause 3 main problems. The first is soil salinity, which makes it more difficult for plants to take up water from the soil. The second problem is called sodicity, and is related to the effects of sodium on soil structure. The third problem is specific ion toxicities and pH-related effects on growth, and that problem is similar to sodicity in that it is a result of alkalinity added to the soil through irrigation waters that tend to be high in sodium. The remediation of salt-affected sites is best left for Turf 401, I think.

-Micah

[Troy Alderson]

Donnie,

I have talked with Scott Anderson and he has stated to me that he has a loamy soil.  He puts down about 10 minutes of irrigation between 5am and 10am ahead of play and only the areas that need it.  He also only goes through about 5 million gallons per year per eighteen holes.  Unbelievable since I go through about 90 million per year per eighteen holes in the high desert of central Oregon.  I would also venture to say that the roots are looking for water deeper in the soil at HVCC.

To all,

The lighter the soil (sand) the less frequent and heavier you can apply the water because the water drains down and away from the surface.  This forces the roots to look for the water deeper in the soil profile.  The heavier the soil (clay) the more oftern and lighter you have to apply the water because the water does not drain down as quickly into the soil profile.  Irrigating heavier soils is not easy and conditions can vary greatly every day.  Deep and infrequent watering is the best approach for any turf but we are limited by the type of soil.

Anyone interested, a very good book to read about Scottish and Irish greenkeeping is "Practical Greenkeeping" by Jim Arthur.  You have to read it knowing that he is typically talking about the weather and conditions over there and that his techniques must be adjusted to fit the climate your golf course is in.

Troy

[Micah Woods]

Troy,

You might be interested to read the thread about Jim Arthur from earlier this year.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18289

-Micah

[Sean Walsh]

I for once concur with Tom(I even read everything he wrote on this thread, usually a time consuming task ).  It is great to hear some real expertise, especially when it is given in terms I can understand.  

[Sean Walsh]

Oops  , Sorry it's Rich I concur with .  

Sorry Tom maybe next time.

[Mark_Guiniven]

I've forwarded this thread to Royal Melbourne Donnie. I think they'll be posting some questions shortly.



Royal Melbourne Investigates

[RJ_Daley]

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/endothal.htm

and

http://www.amgrowgardenking.com.au/products/weed_cs_wintergrass.htm

Does it look like the photos are damage from a spray unit or a drop spreader? Are the remaining grassy lines the wheel tracks or gaps from between passes with a spreader?  I posted the two links above, because it appears that Endothal comes in two forms, a soluble concentrate and granules.  It is what we call Aquathol, one use around piers to suppress weeds in the water.  Is it possible that the applicator wrongly applied granules with a drop spreader at a rate that took out everything?  Or tank mixed at the wrong rate and tire tracks while spraying somehow mitigated the effect.  Although it would seem to me that tires would squish it in the soil worse.  But, it is a foliar effective, not soil activated herbicide...  I like this guess cause of the turf damage stuff.