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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2005, 05:30:35 PM »
I'll take that one Bob, you get the green fee and I'm there. :)

JES -

Bob is far wiser than that, I'm sure part of his challenge to the boastful young man is that even if Punchbowl were to win the bet, he would be minus $ 200 or so bucks to play a course he doesn't like ;)

And I would put even money that Bob would have the opportunity to chastise the young man for wearing his hat inside the Tap Room ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

peter_mcknight

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2005, 06:04:27 PM »
First of all, I believe Mr Galea remarked on perhaps one of the most obvious but least commented things about Pebble--the incredible smallness of the greens.  If I remember correctly, before the new 5th, the 18th was the largest green on the course at around 3800 square feet, which would be the SMALLEST green of all 54 holes at SVCC.

I think the opening hole is a pretty good start--must place it 240 to 250 closer to the left than the right to a reasonably pitched green where, if one hasn't played there before, should really take the advice found in the yardage guide as to how the green breaks (18 is pretty similar to 1).  That isn't one of the holes where one wants to be above, that's for sure.

I have played both the original 5th and the new 5th.  There is no question the new 5th is SO much better than the original.  I stood on the back tee and, the day I played, the pin was in the back portion of the hourglass.  Seriously, it looked like the pin was stuck in the front bunker.  In all likelihood, it was a much better addition because it reduces the amount of "breather" holes in the first 7 holes.

I agree with others that 6 is a great par 5.  For mere mortals, there is significant pressure to hit the fairway so one can actually have a second shot up the hill.  I really have no problem with the blind nature of the second shot up the hill--one needs to acclimate oneself on the tee to prepare oneself for the 2d shot.  When I played there in 1996, I hit perhaps my greatest shot ever.  I hit a 3 metal off the tee 275, but left of the bunker complex and service road and onto an ant hill where the heather grows during opens.  My feet were so above the ball I had a hard time building a stance.  I hooded a 6 iron, played about 25 yards of draw and placed in the middle of the upper fairway.  More importantly, I didn't take a divot.  With 100 balls, I don't think I could do that again.

Hole 11 is a pretty solid hole.  Again, must be positioned accordingly on the left to best approach the pin.  The normal difficulty in the 2d shot is that it is (a) slightly uphill but (b) usually downwind.  One simply can't be above that hole.  The first time through, I hit my 2d shot onto the 12th tee (caught a flyer).  The pin was in the middle.  I actually hit a great shot to be just off the front.  I can't even imagine that green at 11 on the stimp.

I think hole 14 is one of the all-world par 5s anywhere.  In fact, if I had to choose up to 5 par 5s for my ultimate course, hole 14 would be in the top 5.  Again, there is plenty of pressure to hit the fairway in order to set up the most appropriate 3d shot and what a 3d shot it is.  Like I said about the 11th, I can't even imagine this one at an 11.

I agree with others that 15 is pretty bland, but 16 can hardly be considered as such because, in order to have the ability to be at position A on the severe green, you have to be at position A in the fairway.  If I remember correctly, it averaged 4.32 at the 100th open.

I just loved the 17th, if for no other reason, there is simply no backdrop or depth perception.  I played it the 2d time from the 210 teeing area and had a much more difficult time acclimating myself than from the 175 teeing ground.  There is no two ways about it, 17 is one tough par 3 even without wind.  There should be more holes designed without a backdrop or depth perception, just like they have restored at Oakmont.

Hole 18 is probably much better with today's technology, especially for the Tour witches because now they will want to go for it, which brings the cove into play for both the tee and 2d shots.  Most people also don't know that, for resort play, the rough line is about 12-15 yards to the right of the fairway trees towards the cart path.  For the open, it is probably about 2 yards to the right of the fairway trees, a much more daunting tee shot.  Even in 2000, the stroke average was 5.09.

All in all, Pebble is absolutely a top 5 or so course in the world.  The greatest meeting of land and sea anywhere.  I can't wait to get back for a 3d visit and a Tap Room burger for $15 or more.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2005, 06:23:15 PM »
...my rant ;
 #5 I'm 50/50...I liked the old.
 #8 I don't like the new tee on top....mega better from below, which I guess now is a tournament tee, like #5.
  I really don't like the new maintenance complex replete with concession....it just crams a previous positive space.
  #14 Hey, what happened to the greenside right bunker under the oaks?
 I miss the trees on #15 tee and #16 dogleg....I had a general feeling that the course is missing some teeth visually, and is being bandaided landscape architecturally....nothing major, but just little letdowns like you have when a previously great restaurant starts to miss.

Boy, I feel better now...... :-\
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2005, 06:41:31 PM »
I have played both the original 5th and the new 5th.  There is no question the new 5th is SO much better than the original.  I stood on the back tee and, the day I played, the pin was in the back portion of the hourglass.  Seriously, it looked like the pin was stuck in the front bunker.  In all likelihood, it was a much better addition because it reduces the amount of "breather" holes in the first 7 holes.


I think there is a question.

It's funny, until recently I hadn't formulated my opinion of the new fifth. As was suggested many years ago on this site, I gave my thoughts  plenty of time to marinate.


Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2005, 06:45:35 PM »
Adam:

I have no doubt those thoughts of yours were given a lengthy marinade time.   ;D

But that still doesn't make them unquestionable.

Consider the entire flow issue, not just the neat old turn from 5 green past some bushes and on to 6 tee.  That was neat.  But overall isn't it still better as it is now, continuing along the coast as was intended all along?

TH
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 06:45:56 PM by Tom Huckaby »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2005, 06:53:11 PM »
Tom, It really is funny that im defending a hole which was ill-suited for my game, was severely tree encroached and goes against some law of great coasal golf. But I am.

It doe surprise me that you felt the jarring nature of the old fifth and do not feel the jar at SFGC 13th.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2005, 10:16:48 AM »
Adam:

The old 5th at Pebble went against the flow of the golf course - that is, one worked his way down to the coastline, played a hole alongside it, saw it continue on, only to TURN AWAY FROM IT.  That is jarring.

SFGC 13?  #12 takes you to a property line.  The only direction one can go is to the left.  So it angles in a little... that is not very jarring to me.  I guess the architectural style jarred you - going into the trees - but hell the whole course is surrounded by giant trees as it is, on the perimeter as well as to the sides of each fairway.  I continue to fail to see how that is jarring in any way.  All it is is a little tighter than the other holes before it - which to me is kinda cool, ratcheting up the tee-shot accuracy requirements.

The old #5 Pebble - that's very obvious.  It surprises me you - king of flow - can't see this very obvious flowus interruptus.

Or is it that you are so enamored with "quirk" you don't want to admit this obvious defect?

That's all I can figure.  Because the hole was quirky - it wasn't called the world's only dogleg par three for nothing.

So just defend that - that's cool - but don't try to say the flow was better before - that's not even close.

Or maybe is it that we define this nebulous term "flow" differently?

TH
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 10:22:23 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2005, 11:47:36 AM »
th- Yes, It does boil down to quirk verus this modern notion of perfect everything. From framing to playability.

You dont mind the walk back up the hill after the new 5th, yet admit it's a flaw. S'plain?

There was always something special about the old walk around the corner, over the driveway, climaxing in the magnificant view. The start of golf's heaven. Now it starts with your back to it. ::)

 Paying 4.5 mil for the land the hole sits on, just to stay on the coast, seems wasteful, since at least Dan King and myself preffered it the other way.  ;D
 Plus That other way wouldnt have spawned the new maintenance facility, wasting more money, because there would'nt have been any Schwabs to disturb with the early morning mowers. :o

Fiduciarly irrespondsible, if you ask me.



 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 11:52:23 AM by Adam Clayman »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2005, 11:51:37 AM »
Adam:

I've already explained this - go back to my first post on the subject.  Neither way is perfect, but in the total net, the new way is better.  And by the way, you still don't see the hellacious flaw in going to the coast, playing along it, then turning AWAY from it for one hole, only to go back?  Talk about having your back to golf heaven....

In any case, the way it is now, the start of golf heaven occurs in 3 fairway.  The old way you had to wait until #6.  Me, I like more heaven than less.

As for wasting money, what the hell do I care?  They're not exactly hurting there.  ;)

You and Dan King remain wrong on this issue, too clouded by your addiction to quirk.  That's OK, though I learn a lot from both of you, neither of you is infallible.  You could just admit though rather than arguing against solid logic.

Repeat after me:  "I just loved the quirky old hole, regardless of how it killed the flow."

That I'd understand.

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 11:55:45 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2005, 12:00:16 PM »

You and Dan King remain wrong on this issue,


Wrong? Impossible.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2005, 12:04:06 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

I must admit it's a cosmic cataclysm to have this happen to both of you at the same time.

 ;D ;D

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2005, 12:24:38 PM »
Since when are opinions wrong? Wait I know.... since they started ranking courses in magazines?


Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2005, 12:27:45 PM »
Aye, laddie, it's not your opinions that are wrong - of course those can't be.

It's your lack of acknowledgement of very obvious issues - that part is wrong.

Just recognize the troubling flow issues before and we have no problems.  Yes, the rest is just opinion.

TH

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2005, 12:35:18 PM »
Huck,

I missed the over under on the mention of your understanding/lack thereof of flow being tied to SFGC by a day.  I guess the purists are only tied to the original intentions of the architect if the hole was actually built, not just where it was intended to be originally built...

In my mind, the gloriousness of turn from the 5th tee to six now starts and continues after the drive on 4...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 12:35:54 PM by Sean Leary »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2005, 12:41:35 PM »
Sean:

Well I have to admit I too was surprised it took Adam this long to bring SFGC into the discussion.   ;D

But we are copacetic re Pebble.  I'd just say the glory and majesty that used to be experienced on 6 tee now occurs as one rounds the corner around the trees and heads down 3 fairway... seeing 17 off on the distance, the sea behind... and then continues unabated until 11 tee.  But if we want to start it on 4 tee I can live with that.   ;)  The point is it is no longer interrupted, not even by a walk from the front tee to the back tee on 6.  I'd sugget to those for whom that's a round ruiner that they just play the front tee.

 ;D
TH

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2005, 12:53:42 PM »
On a somewhat different topic, how much does having houses all over the course affect the people's opinion of golf course. Is part of the reason the maligned holes at Pebble (1,2,11-14 particularly) are viewed that way due to the presence of the houses.  Although I know it can't be, if the course itself were in a vaccuum with no houses, would it be preceived to be even greater than it is.  I think it would...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2005, 12:58:56 PM »
Sean:

Well I've always been one to say that looking at courses in a vacuum ought to be left to golf course architects judging each other, or physicists who just love vacuums in principle.  Everything surrounding a golf course sure as hell does play into its greatness or not, unless one is either Stevie Wonder or the ultra-target-focused Rich Goodale.

So yes, the presence of houses can't help Pebble's cause.  Those are some damn fine houses, though.

Interesting, the ever-wise shivas downgrades #2 Cypress for just this reason... playing right at someone's backyard.  Others romanticize #10 Winged Foot because Hogan said it's a 2iron into someone's bedroom, or something like that.

This all leads me to believe that outside presences like this are just used to strengthen arguments.  That is yes, they matter, but only how people WANT them to.

TH

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2005, 01:02:30 PM »
Tom,

I agree.  I just think these holes get a worse rap because of how they look rather than how they play.

The house behind 10 green is my favorite in the world, no question.......

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2005, 01:04:57 PM »
I don't think any of the homes outside of the property (higher up on the hill) are a negative, but I could see the cluster that would be in between....I guess its 1,2,3,17 and 18 being a negative. As I said earlier, my recall is not great about these ancillary details but does that area crowd those holes at all? How about the yacht club (or whatever it is left of 17 and right of 4)? Are the buildings and roads associated with that a blight? I think these are some of the things that left a bad impression on me that have since been cleansed.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2005, 01:05:35 PM »
Sean - well said.  I also think they get a bad rap because they are on the same course with so many other holes that are absolutely world-class, by any measure (how they play, how they look, how they make one feel).  Sure 1-2-11-12-13-15 aren't OBVIOUSLY as majestic, and the houses don't help matters.  But as for how they play, they do hold up their end, each and every one of them.

And yes, that is one PALACE behind 10 green.  Seems every time I see it there is more built on.  Yowza.

TH

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2005, 01:09:21 PM »
Rumor has it that it was Gene Hackmans years ago and he lost it in a divorce.  Ouch. If that house on 13 that sold was worth 30 mil ish (then gutted), how much would that be? 75 mil? 100?

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2005, 01:45:17 PM »
Sean,

Gene Hackman did lose it in a divorce. He bought it from Count Daveney and then hired an architect friend to propose some changes and my wife for the interior design. The place was in dodgy condition, I was there one day and he had on some work gloves and jeans and was pulling down some of the tired woodwork. Mrs. Hackman came up to Pebble Beach, didn't care for it or the weather and then bought a magnificent place in Montecito. They were divorced there.

Hackman sold it to a local entrepreneur who built the sea wall and did some expensive building. Unfortunately the man had defrauded the banks, was found guilty in absentia, went to Monte Carlo, had a face lift but was eventually caught and extradited and did time in a California prison.

The current owner moved in after several years of modifications.

Bob

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2005, 02:11:38 PM »
Bob Huntley,

Would you care to guess what that house is worth today?

Does Pebble Beach have any members, or is it all pay as you play?

Are there reduced rates for locals?

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2005, 02:13:35 PM »
Great story Bob.   I just can't imagine a better location for a house anywhere in the world, at least for me.  However, some of those cliffside homes on 17 mile drive come damn close...

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2005, 02:16:34 PM »
Lou,


Bob can confirm or not, but  a caddie told me that the woman(?) who owns the house directly behind 12 teebox was given a "membership" after it was found that the back teebox technically was on her property.....