Pebble Beach Golf Links

[mike_malone]

 Adam,
    I think he was on the back nine when I tuned in. The uphill par four early on the back (13 ?) and then #14. It was "Playing lessons with the Pros".

[JESII]

I played Pebble during one practice round and one medal round in the 1999 US Amateur and came away underwhelmed. I remained down on Pebble up through my joining this site about a year ago. I may have even listed it as my choice in one of those most overrated courses threads. I am now of the opinion that my experiences were too few (and in the wrong context) and my expectations were too high. I say this not trying to make an excuse for high expectations, I am certain when I get back I will be overwhelmed, but to make it clear that the course is excellent. At the time I had seen Pine Valley, Shinnecock, Merion and Royal County Down and did not think it any better. Fact is it is not, that's not exactly grounds for saying the course is overrated, those four are not too bad.

The reason for my change of heart is simple, those that "know" the course point out things which are true but that I did not realize while there. The "mundane" holes are very good and the others are so good it's scary.

Most surprising to me was #6, I'm surprised it does not get more recognition from those that "know" the course. #8 is indescribable, and #18 is what it is.

[Tom Huckaby]

Interesting thoughts re #5.  Is the change in flow really a total net negative?

Before: 3 takes you down to the sea, visually... 4 takes you alongside it... 5 GOES AWAY FROM IT, back into the trees...you hike quite a bit to find 6 tee... 6 then goes back down to the sea.

Now: 3 takes you down to the sea, visually... 4 takes you alongside it... 5 goes along the same line as 4, continuing the journey along the coast.. you see the front tee for 6 right there behind the green, walk backwards a bit to the middle and back tees...6 then continues along the sea.

Is this walk back to the tee really that bad?  And also, wasn't the "flow" interrupted a LOT more before?  Sure, turning the corner back to the ocean was kinda neat, but to me not enough to make up for how silly it was to leave the coast in the first place.

I like the new #5 better than the old - can you tell?

And I haven't even described the shot requirements.  Old was a blind shot that had to be hooked - quirky yes, but great no.  Visually it was kinda boring.  The new hole is Jack all over requiring a fade, but the coast is in play and it's much prettier.

Oh well, this is yet another issue we've batted around several times before.  I just wanted to give a dissenting view.  

[Sean Leary]

I agree with Tom in that I like the new 5th better as well.  My only thing is that I wish they would open the tournament tee box.  From back there and a firm apron in front, it would allow a run up option with a long iron...

[A_Clay_Man]

Jack Nicklaus loved the Second Hole at Pebble, calling it a great short five.  Thoughts?

2 is a fine hole. For first timers, the cross hazard is some what of an unexpeted quandry, while introducing you to what lays ahead.

Mayday- I feel the multitude of awkward stances are integral to enjoying the shotmaking. If that makes sense to you? I feel the same way about Spyglass Hill, whch often gets panned past the 5th hole. The awkward stances on the subsequent 13 holes really is the courses strength.(other than the greens) Be it challenging serious shotmaking or just having fun.

And,

Huck. There really is no hope for you.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - good call re the back tee - I didn't get to play that either - and it would make for a VERY fun shot - run it in along the left, definitely.

[Sean Leary]

TH,

I don't think they ever open it, probably for liability reasons. A skulled iron over the 4th green could easily catch skull...

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

You're right, there remains no hope for me to see the logic where it doesn't exist.

 

Seriously - I dig "flow" as much as the next man.  But at Pebble, they took a seriously flawed flow and fixed it, with one necessary tiny negative (the walk back to 6 tee).  Man I have to tell ya, the old 5 was just about the worst example of flowus interruptus I'd ever seen.  It was jarring.  You don't acknowledge that?

Wasn't it also the original intention to route things as they are today?  

TH

[Sean Leary]

I guess my question is, what would have happened if the land where the current 5th is was available originally? Since all indications are that the original intent was to have 5 where it is now, would that have changed the routing at all, or would there still be a walk back to 6 teebox?  The other option would have been to make 6 a par 4, where you drive to the bottom of the hill (or into it).

[JESII]

Just take a cart back to the 6th tee, nominus flowus interuptus!

[Bob_Huntley]

Sean,

The green may well have been sited in the Lucas/Schwab property, a little way up from the current configuration. This would have put the green but spitting distance from the 6th tee.

Bob

[ForkaB]

"Spitting" at Pebble Beach!  Surely, Bob, you jest.

[mike_malone]

 Adam,

   I agree about "awkward stances" being important. The lack of them  was a knock on a few highly rated courses I have played.

[JESII]

Really Mike, which ones?

[mike_malone]

JES II

  The names escape me at the moment

[JESII]

They must really have been forgettable, was there any interest off the tee?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jes, You are making the best of points. I always feel one needs to play a course a number of times and walk it looking at all the angles to really have a good feel for what it has to offer. There are some guys, but I am not that good, who can just ride it once and get it all. You are not the first guy to play an event, especially a major event, and miss out on a lot of the architecture and true dynamics of a course. Your comparison courses are in good company in the best in the world club as well.

[JESII]

Your last sentence, Tiger, is what some of our friends on here have made clear.

Thanks

[Punchbowl]

Personally I think 18 is way over-rated.  Awesome tee shot because of the setting...how much to cut off...the tree.....but then you are just playing up a lawn...to a very boring green.

[JESII]

How would you improve it?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Yes Modern equipemtn is taking some of the greatness from so many par 5's. However, 18 is still a great hole. The layup is just not what it used to be.

[JESII]

Yes Modern equipemtn is taking some of the greatness from so many par 5's. However, 18 is still a great hole. The layup is just not what it used to be.

Why no? Is it because of using a shorter club? If so, wouldn't the same logic mean more people are trying to reach the green in two, therefore taking on the risk of the bay more directly? Could that be a positive?

[Bob_Huntley]

Punchbowl,

You must play some unbeliveably exciting golf holes or be somewhat jaded, to call the 18th something akin to lawn bowling.

Not knowing the calibre of your game but I would guess that you are in single figures. If not, then I'll have a small wager. Fifty bucks says that you will not par it and I'll give you  2 to 1 against a birdie.

Bob

[JESII]

I'll take that one Bob, you get the green fee and I'm there.

[A_Clay_Man]

 But at Pebble, they took a seriously flawed flow and fixed it, with one necessary tiny negative (the walk back to 6 tee).  Man I have to tell ya, the old 5 was just about the worst example of flowus interruptus I'd ever seen.  It was jarring.  You don't acknowledge that?

So much for those eighty years of tradition.

Tom did it occur to you that 6 might not have been a par 5 if they'd routed in through that propety originally?

Plus, Yougo ahead and argue with Dan King about it. I'm tired.