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Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #125 on: December 07, 2005, 04:24:06 PM »
It's always been my understanding that #5 would have been built where it now sits had the land been available, but Sam Morse (or someone) had already sold it to a homeowner who wouldn't sell it back to the resort.

To me, that says -- regardless of the motivation now to build a new #5 -- the routing of Pebble Beach is supposed to hug the ocean as much as possible. Maybe that means #6 would have been a par 4 -- and in all likelihood an inferior hole -- or maybe the current backtrack would have been put into the original routing. It doesn't matter to me. Money aside, there is historical integrity to the current routing, and I like the current 5th hole very much.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #126 on: December 07, 2005, 04:24:52 PM »
Patrick:

Who knows?  It's not my bag, as they say.  Here's hoping they don't mess any more with this great old course.

TH

ps - what Rick just posted is what I've been trying to get the curmudgeons to see for two days now.  Good luck, Rick.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 04:25:34 PM by Tom Huckaby »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2005, 06:15:33 PM »
OK guys ...I've been following this thread for six pages now and I have tried to remain on a professional level, which I have to admit has been hard so I might have to just go ahead and admit that if it was not for the old #5, I might not be doing what I do today....I'm a man and I know we should not show our emotions but sometimes you have to let them out before you burst.

so here goes .......

along time ago I was newly employed to care for old #5...I would mow her green surface and take care of her surrounds...I would keep her bunkers free of debris and strove to maintain a neat appearance, I hand raked the sand and edges were trimmed but not excessively so.

Well, one day when I came to work the front bunker face had collapsed....this didn't surprise me as since nearly half the players seemed to be in there and the effects of the daily sand splash had built the lip up quite high [something I noticed many times previously while pulling the sand with a rake up the face].....and it looked like a missing tooth from the tee!

After conferring with my aging portigee co-workers [I was still the new strong back and most of the others had started their greenskeeping careers many years earlier when the anchovy harvests were in decline and if the job they had to do did not include a seat, well thats why they were talking to me]..it was decided that I would perform the repair.

I did well, essentially stacking sod for a new face and pulling the sand up the same.....It was then I was promoted to head the 'new' special projects division, just me and a newer guy who was only with us as he was on leave from Playboy to write a kind of undercover story about Pebble or something like that [John Carlisle please stand up]....anyway because of this field promotion one thing kind of lead to another and now I design and build golf courses for a living.

anyway, I could go on about how good the ball hawking was in the ravine on the left [ I would always check it out first before mowing the green...but fast, I mean super fast..but always great balls ]....or I could even tell about how I personally saved the '71 Crosby from having to use a temporary green in front of #14,.... but I really feel like a good cry instead. :'(
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 06:18:20 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Matt_Ward

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2005, 06:17:08 PM »
Can anyone with some real insights speak to the issue of Pebble Beach turf quality?

I still hear consistently that the course is at best 50 / 50 on this front.

Thanks ...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2005, 06:20:21 PM »
Paul - thanks for sharing.  And a good cry is good for the soul.

Hey, I don't mean to offend those who tended for the ole bitch - she was always in wonderful shape, and you must have had a tough job given all of that tree cover.  I can also understand your love for the ole crone, warts and all.

But a bitch and a crone and a warty ole witch she remained.  Sure you can love her, you knew her well.  Hard to expect those of us who saw her maybe 10 times and didn't get a chance to see past the warts not to be seduced by the new beauty down the road.

 ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2005, 06:20:39 PM »
Tom Huckaby,

One would think, that if the original design for # 5 was what it is today, that # 6 would have been designed differently, and not as it is.

But, I know you don't dwell on those sort of things ;D

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2005, 06:23:17 PM »
...oh Matt, its obvious you don't consider my insights real, but just don't be cruel...after all this is a public forum :-[
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 06:24:37 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2005, 06:24:03 PM »
Patrick:

Oh now THAT I dwell on.. and in fact have repeatedly done so in this and the other thread on the subject.  You are forgiven, just this once, for the attack of Goodale's Disease*.

Just so you don't have to seek it out, and to show what a nice guy I am, my take is they could have made one of the world's greatest par fours with a tee down there on the cliff, to the right of current new 5 green.  The teeshot would be a tester up the cliff, hugging the edge if one dares, or maybe, just maybe, even going straight at the green.  It boggles my mind how cool that hole would have been.  And yes, to me it would be better than the current #6 par five, as great as that hole is (and I do love it so).  The rest of the course would have remained the same, also.

TH

* also known as "failure to read other than the current post-itis."
« Last Edit: December 07, 2005, 06:25:12 PM by Tom Huckaby »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2005, 06:57:48 PM »
Tom....good last post and if we had kept the old #5 and then walked back to your new #6 as a four and we play #9 thru #13 in reverse as I have suggested previously...well, I think we are talking good stuff [but par 71]....we could still do your four and save the new #5 by just plopping the tee behind it.
just athought.

chaio'

p ???ul
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2005, 07:07:54 PM »
Tom, I think you need to re-evaluate just how nice a guy you really are.

Paul Cowley pours his heart out about the old fifth, to you, and in the next post, you call her a crank a bitch a warted witch.

What kind of monster are you?

You have spent way too much time in the board room.

Re your new routing; How do propose to let people know where the sixth green is?

From the old route, the only time the golfer could see the green was at the top of that hill. Any forward of that, and all you can see is the tree beyond the green until you cant see anything but the hill in front of your face..

With your tee down by the cliffs, just off the cove near the new fifth green, the first time golfer would never have had a chance to see the entirety of the hole, or the clues on how to get there.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2005, 07:41:10 PM »
Thanks Adam for your support  :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2005, 10:18:04 AM »
Adam:  My niceness remains intact.  You shoulda seen the first draft of my description.   ;)

As for my new routing, well I hope you never play Lahinch, or National Golf Links, or any of the many other great golf courses that feature blind shots.

Boy Adam you sure have a lot of pet peeves about golf courses.

 ;D ;D

Paul - very interesting thought... but heck, all I'm asking for is what they might have done had the property where new 5 is been available from the start.  I truly don't want to mess with the great Pebble Beach THAT much.

TH
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 10:19:29 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Andy Doyle

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #137 on: December 08, 2005, 10:21:23 AM »
I looked at the Google aerials - for those who know the old #5, how was it sited in relation to those 2 big houses and the back tees on #6?  Was the green located where the houses are now?  Or was it more towards the driveways or that open area?

Andy

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #138 on: December 08, 2005, 10:29:19 AM »
Andy - the old 5 green was to the left of the current houses, kinda where those smaller bushes are next to the gray-looking road.

I think.  Maybe someone can describe it better.

TH

Andy Doyle

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #139 on: December 08, 2005, 10:40:22 AM »
So is the grey road the old cart path?  Was the tee back by that "V" shaped intersection?

I obviously never saw the old #5 & I can see the appeal of turning the corner and looking down the length of #6.  But without having that frame of reference (bias?), I sure thought #5 was an excellent hole.

Andy

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #140 on: December 08, 2005, 10:45:28 AM »
The tee was directly to the left of 4 green - yeah kinda by that intersection.  Green was where I said.  That grey road is not the old cartpath - that's about the left side of the "fairway" - that is the grass leading up the hill to the green.  Those huge trees to the left of that road are what made it play as a dogleg - it really required a hook.

Then you walked off the green, though some more trees, around the back of the old property, on to 6 tee.  The right side of the golf hole was HUGE tall ugly hedges, more of which were on the walk to 6 tee.  

It was then kinda neat the way 6 then appeared before you.

But not SO neat as to make up for the fatal flaws of the previous golf hole, and the fatal flaw of turning away from coastline that could be used.

Of course sensible minds do disagree about that last part.

 ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 10:46:40 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Andy Doyle

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2005, 10:46:19 AM »
OK, thanks.

AD

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #142 on: December 08, 2005, 11:43:01 AM »
Of course, the new 5th hole is vastly inferior to the old.  What would we all come to expect from such inferiors as Eastwood, Uberoth (sp), Schwab, Nickalus, et. al.?  Thoughtful design?  Sensitivity to tradition?  Spending $millions wisely?  Heavens, no.  They just want to piss us off on gca.com.

I've only played PBGL once, and never the new 5th.  Though I've spent considerably more time on the new hole than the old (I've walked parts of the course three times since #5 was redone), I have not compared digital photographs of the two.  Therefore, I am not qualified to opine.

Please!!!  It is extremely cold and icy in north Texas this morning.  No doubt I can find a half-dozen or more no this site who would argue otherwise.  As John McLaughlin would say, with its great setting, new #5 is vastly surperior to the old.  Done.  Finished.  Finito.

BTW, I concur with the initial premise of this thread.  However, since I've been going to Pebble Beach starting in the mid-70s, PBGL has gotten much better.  I just don't know that I'll ever fork over $400+ to experience it more intimately again.  

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #143 on: December 08, 2005, 11:54:50 AM »
How do we decide on which is the better hole, looks, degree of difficulty or which type of shot is best to par the hole?

With respect to all other opinions, Huckaby included, if it's the look of the hole then the 5th wins the beauty contest, if it's which hole demanded the most skillful shot, the old in a landslide.

Perhaps there is statistical  maven here who could research the over and under on the hole during the past A.T.&T tourney to determine if I am right.

Bob

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #144 on: December 08, 2005, 11:59:15 AM »
Aye Bob, there's the rub.  And there's where reasonable minds are also going to differ.

Obviously beauty means more to me than difficulty in general.  If that weren't the case, I'd play all my golf from the tips at Palo Alto Muni - a truly ugly course that can indeed be very difficult from the back tees.

Now of course no one takes this to such extremes.  All of us have different degrees to which we value these things.

I just didn't find the old #5 to be enough of anything as to win the day over the new hole.  It was surely more difficult from similar distances; though I'd debate that if we allow play from the back tee on the new hole and compared the scores of amateurs, not pros.  In any case though, I just didn't find much to love about it.  Others do.  Fair enough.

So which hole is "better" can never be answered defininitely.

TH
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 12:00:16 PM by Tom Huckaby »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2005, 11:59:51 AM »
Bob, I dont think we need a statistician. Im my limited exposure to both holes, I have seen two hole in ones at the New, and not one birdie, on the old.

Lou, I don't know which side of the fence you ended up on in that post. But if you sided with the Sunshie Kid (HucK) could you explain again why the hole you have never played is better?

Quote
Obviously beauty means more to me than difficulty in general.  If that weren't the case, I'd play all my golf from the tips at Palo Alto Muni - a truly ugly course that can indeed be very difficult from the back tees.

And this from the author of "Rancho del Pueblo"
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 12:04:31 PM by Adam Clayman »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #146 on: December 08, 2005, 12:06:01 PM »
Come on Adam, give me the "n" I so richly deserve.  I'm taking a beating on the handicap thread.
 ;D ;D ;D

The SunshiNe Kid

ps - I don't think I've ever argued that the old hole was tougher.  Once again I just don't equate toughness to greatness.  I don't think you do either, and I know Bob doesn't.  So what's the point here?

pss - Rancho del Pueblo has a beauty only I can see.  Both of my kids hit their first shots there... you wanna talk Mojo? I had posted pics but I remember Tom MacWood tearing me a new ass for doing so re my kids.. so such deleted now.  Just imagine two very cute kids on a very ugly, but beautiful to me, golf course.   ;D
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 12:18:33 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #147 on: December 08, 2005, 01:20:15 PM »
Lou, I don't know which side of the fence you ended up on in that post. But if you sided with the Sunshie Kid (HucK) could you explain again why the hole you have never played is better?  Adam C.
-----------------------------------------------------------

You haven't seen the McLaughlin Group?  John always has the last word.

As to the Sunshine Kid, you know, when he is right he is right (though in light of his affinity for Pelosi, I shrudder to think how his thought process works).

Since the rude butt-kicking I received in the wee hours of 11/1, I now belong to the Dan King/Geoff Shackelford school of golf course evaluation and analysis.  No longer do I feel encumbered to actually play the game or a specific course to form and make public my opinions.

Why is new #5 better than old?  I could say that it is because the previous version wasn't that good at all, but this is not entirely true.

The old #5 going back inland just felt crowded and shoe horned in.  My recollection is that the left side of the hole was grown-in and the presentation from the tee box was very ordinary.  

The flow of the course, just as the golfer began to experience PB after 2 1/2 very pedestrian holes, reverted back to what one could find on many courses priced 90% cheaper.  I do agree that the trek to #6 tee was simpler, and, by virtue of #5 being a fairly non-descript inland hole, #6 was probably elevated in comparison.

Bob Huntley poses a good (though rather obvious ;)) question.  Personally, I use all the criteria he noted- looks, degree of difficulty, shot selection- in forming my opinions of a hole.  How the hole fits the golf course and how it flows with what has taken place and what is yet to be experienced are also important factors for me.

From the backs, old 5 was under 170 yards, heading away from the bay.  The hole was indeed difficult, perhaps exacting might be a better way to describe it.  Wind was less of a factor, and, if memory serves, probably tended to shorten the hole.

New 5 has a superior site aesthetically.  If the land had been available at the time PB was built, no doubt that we would not be having this discussion.  

I am not sure that new 5 is an easier hole being 20 yards longer and more exposed to the elements.  The green complex is probably larger and not as complicated.  But you are also going from short iron approaches on the previous three holes to a mid to long iron shot to a cliffside target buffeted by the winds and guarded by a creek short of front.

BTW, I do not give resistance to scoring nearly as much weight as some might.  If I did, Austin Country Club, Horseshoe Bay- Ram Rock, and Stonebridge CC- Dye would be in my top 10 in the US and none of them make it very high on my Texas list.  That you had not seen a single birdie on old 5 can mean one of three things: 1) you didn't see very many shots on that hole, 2) you saw a lot of really bad shots, or 3) the hole was so tricked-up as not to reward good shots, hardly a quality of great golf design.

New 5 is better, without question.  But if you think old 5 takes the prize, all the more power to you (and you can probably get on at Dallas National anytime you want this afternoon!).
   






Tom Huckaby

Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #148 on: December 08, 2005, 01:27:25 PM »
Lou:

VERY well stated.  I concur with every word.  And thanks for taking the time to detail this; I had failed to do so to this exent.

As for Ms. Pelosi, well... you likely don't want to ask me about Feinstein or Boxer either.  Just do remember that when it comes to politics, I am very apathetic, and when asked, just revert to what my parents - VERY staunch Democrats - tell me to support.  So blame them.

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 01:28:23 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pebble Beach Golf Links
« Reply #149 on: December 08, 2005, 02:03:33 PM »
TH,

I think I should have said Boxer and not Pelosi.  How people develop a political orientation is something that's always fascinated me.  Just like with golf, we can think what we want and believe that those who disagree with us are full of it.  At the same time, we can remain courteous and friendly, perhaps open-minded, without getting personal and holier-than-thou.

Regardless, Adam is wrong about this one and that's all there is to it.  And Glen is right about the main point- PBGL is vastly overrated!