Why hasnt the 4th at St. Andrews been copied more?

[Evan_Green]

Particularly the mound in front of the green which plays such havoc on this hole. How many other mounds near a green can cause a golfer to think about them off the tee? Such a small amount of matter influencing the strategy of a hole so much... Not only in deflecting shots, but in creating an illusion of distance. It seems like something that would be so easy to copy- I'm surprised it hasnt been copied more.

Would love to hear others thoughts on this matter...

[Tom_Doak]

Evan:

I tried to reproduce that bump once, in front of the sixth green at The Legends (Heathland course).  However, we built it just a little too severe for the superintendent's tastes, so they leave it as rough instead of mowing it tight like fairway, which defeats the whole purpose.  

Ever since, I've made sure to ask the superintendent whether he can mow something tight or not, before we plant it.

It's a tough feature for most golfers to understand.  I love that mound as much as any feature on The Old Course; but it doesn't fit into the style of very many other courses.  Maybe someday I'll find another place for one.

[Evan_Green]

Tom

I sure hope you do find a place for it for it some day - it is a hard thing to do, but with the right purist type of client, right land, right type of course....you never know...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I love that mound, I love that hole. The green--crazy as a loon.

[ForkaB]

Tom D is right

The hump fits the theme of holes 2-6 at the Old Course, but probably would look like carbuncle on most golf courses, particulary if the approaches to the green (including the hump) were not maintained firm and fast.  I'm not aware of any of that early stretch have ever been copied, and in fact there are very few replicas of ANY hole on the Old course.  As we've discussed recently the High Hole (In)--aka the "Eden"--has never been successfully copied, to my knowledge.  There are some Road hole copies, and some are very good golf holes (e.g. NGLA), but without a road or a Hotel/RR shed they become exercises in imagination rather than examples of a template.  There are some interesting Pinciple's Nose features around the world, but has anybody succeeded (or even attempted) copying the entire 16th?

I think one of the reasons that the Old Course is held in such affection by so many people is that is "Itself" in the Irish sense.  It has an individuality and so many idiosyncracies that it would be futile to try to "copy"--from a GCA point of view (from a marketing gimmick point of view, well that's a different kettle of fish.....).

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

The 18th at Garden City Golf Club is a reasonable version of the Eden.  It isn't as severe around the green, but it does deliver the same message.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Tom.  So was Macdonald copying Travis?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
While I whole-heartedly agree that the GCGC Eden is a VERY good hole, the one aspect I find fascinating about it is that its another Eden that doesn't follow the the same rules of depth on the putting surface as the original, which I find is the most alarming aspect of the hole.

It's enough to scare the bejeebees out of you everytime your on the tee, no matter how much you realize the actual depth of the green itself and for that particular shot.

[ed_getka]

The Eden at GCGC has the bunkering to think about but isn't nearly as intimidating without the back to front slope of the original at TOC.

[Philippe Binette]

Although I have not been there...

Sure a mound like that won't be popular among most of the players...

As far as the visual side: The thing that struck me the most when I look at the picture of it in The Anatomy of a golf course, is how it doesn't really look natural... it looks to be a couple of feet above the horizon of the course, maybe it's just the picture but still...

definitely it could be used again... it could be the only feature on a hole and still make it a cool hole

[Paul_Turner]

The 8th at Sunningdale Old is supposedly an Eden/High, a nice hole regardless.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Phillipe,
Thanks for getting back on target with this, as I'm looking at the topo right this very minute and it is rather quite obvious the mound is a very definitive feature of the hole when it comes to the strategy of playing the hole. The green is evil & wicked enough that going to the right is almost like accepting the fact your not going to one-putt, but that left side of the mound with the green, it will funnel the ball to a host of positions worthy of Defence of the putting surface. (something Wethered & Simpson wrote about extensively)

Simply put, that left side for me is a Sportsman's shot. Many don't try it on purpose--at least I never really saw them do it much, but I'm sure Tom Doak and Brad Klein should know the hole pretty well from their bag-totting days abroad.) The penalty isn't much if you can't pull the shot off, it only adds a couple of strokes should you not get it by the mound or take it to far away from the slope to the lower section of green. MacKenzie talks about it in Spirit of St. Andy, how Joyce Wethered found birdie there more then any he had seen play the hole in all of his visits there.

God, I love that place!

[ForkaB]

Another interesting thing about the 4th is that it is effectively a new hole, built when the course was widened in the mid-19th century.  At least one account (Balfour) implies that there was a fair bit of earth moving (for those days) in that endeavour.  I wonder if the mound is natural or was artificially enhanced?

PS--there is supposed to be a book coming out soon by a New Zealander (McPherson?) on the architectural evolution of the Old Course.  Anybody know anything about when this might be?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Two holes with mounds that front the greens are the 10th at Talking Stick North and Oakmont's 8th.
Are either of those similar?
I won't have seen the hole in question until this April...

[Tags:]

Tags: