Thatch?

[TEPaul]

For the supers out there.

I may've asked this before (if so sorry, can't find it) but how much is excessive thatch a factor of over-irrigation and how much is it a factor of lack of regular or semi-regular aeriating, coring, etc---or basically both?

For the supers who answer please also tell me if your clubs and their programs allow you to aeriate as often as you'd like to get your turf into the ideal playability you'd like to see.

I'm not  disinterested in the greens but primarily I'd like answers that involve fairways and particularly approaches.

Whatever the causes of thatch I sure do know it's a real inhibitor of firm and fast and the ground game particularly on approaches---perhaps the most important and necessary area of a golf course for ground game playability.

[john_stiles]

For thatch build up in greens,  verticutting seems to rip 'miles' of 'thatch' out.

How often, in southern clime, do you verticut w/ sand based USGA type greens, for some modern bent strains ?   It would seem to depend on your local conditions, etc.  but how often in general for some of the common, modern bent strains.

[Dave_Miller]

For thatch build up in greens,  verticutting seems to rip 'miles' of 'thatch' out.

How often, in southern clime, do you verticut w/ sand based USGA type greens, for some modern bent strains ?   It would seem to depend on your local conditions, etc.  but how often in general for some of the common, modern bent strains.

Tom:
We had a very serious thatch problem.  It was caused primarily by a lack of core aerations.  We solved it by doing the deep core aerations and by verticutting.
Not sure if overwatering lends to this but that does seem to make sense.
Best
Dave

[Tom Jefferson]

TE Paul;

My simple answer regarding thatch accumulation is........all of the above.  That is, many factors do contribute to the excessive accumulation of partially decomposed organic matter.  The most important ones, in my experience, are excessive nitrogen fertilization, excessive irrigation, lack of removal of thatch (by any method....slicing, coring, verticutting, grooming), and MOST CERTAINLY not enuf sand topdressing.

That above statement refers to any turfgrass, be it in the fairways, on the greens, anywhere....well managed and healthy turf (of which minimal thatch accumulation is one indicator) is the result of a balanced program, one that includes the cultural basics mentioned above.

I find it difficult to say any one factor is more important than any other..........the BALANCE of all the factors is what's important.  And the super that produces healthy, firm turf is one who has learned to balance the basic cultural factors to suit his/her particular turf, soil, climate, and budget.  If I was forced to say which practice contributed the most to excessive thatch accumulation (at the threat of death, or worse, having to vote republican), I would finger the excessive nitrogen issue, then the topdressing, then lack of mechanical removal, then irrigation. My opinion only.

Here in Bandon having minimal thatch in our sward of fine fescue is relatively easy to achieve, while I found it tuff to minimize thatch in pennlinks bent greens and blue/rye rough in a mountain climate setting.

topdress....judicious nutrient applications....minimal water....frequent cultivation of some kind...topdress...judicious nutrient app...little water whenever possible...accumulation removal....topdress.....on...and....on

Hope this helps!

Tom

ps.....your question re: Have I been allowed to deal with thatch by coring whenever I liked? Busy municipal course in Northern California city....generally yes. A mid range resort course in N.C.....yes.   Bandon Dunes....absolutely.
 

[Bill Warnick]

I have very little to add to the previous posts except well said.

There is a good article about the thatch problems at Whistling Straits and what they did to get ready for the PGA.

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2005/jan_feb/Excess.html

[TEPaul]

".....and MOST CERTAINLY not enuf sand topdressing."

Tom Jefferson:

If you're talking straight sand topdressing, I'm going to have to take that one to HVGC's super Scott Anderson for some feedback. He claims he doesn't like topdressing that's too heavy on the sand percentage---says it just too neutral, not natural or organic enough, whatever. When he did a core the other day it didn't look thatchy-- and the soil looked good and crumbly. What do you make of that?

[Joe Hancock]

When he did a core the other day it didn't look thatchy-- and the soil looked good and crumbly. What do you make of that?

I would guess it means good water management. Even straight sand won't be good and crumbly if it's saturated. It's easy to guess that knowing it was Scott Anderson's dirt, though.

Joe

[Tom Jefferson]

TE Paul;
I appreciate Joe Hancock's post above, particularly his vote of affirmation of Scott Anderson's practical wisdom and ability.  It alludes to my statement of a good superintendent knowing what works for him, at his location, climate, soil, and customer constituency.  And if Mr. Anderson does indeed use a blended topdressing, that tells me he knows what's going on and how to get HIS particular program applied to his goal of healthy turf.

And to use our conditions in Bandon in support of that statement.......fine fescues love sand topdressing (as I understand it, fescue grasses originated in sandy links conditions) and the dry growing conditions that sand provides; If fescues are kept too wet, their health suffers.
So it makes sense that a straight sand topdressing program is a good choice here.  And, it doesn't hurt that we have unlimited quantities of clean dune sand on site!!

At the other two courses I have  managed we didn't have the fiscal resourses (nor did I have the turf knowledge and/or political ability to sell a blended topdressing program to my 'superiors'), so I used straight sand.

So if Mr. Anderson uses a blended topdressing, that tells me he has the ability/experience/managerial qualities AND the courage of his convictions.  Good on him!

One more point..and I am probably being redundant...one goal of any mechanical coring operation is to remove excessive organic material, and one related goal of topdressing is to replace the thatch with an amendment.  That amendment can vary (blended material or straight sand.....TOC uses composted seaweed, I believe), but the overall goal is healthy turf, and as long as the direction of the program heads towards less thatch and more amendment, healthier turf will hopefully result.

Hope this helps,
Tom



 

[TEPaul]

"I would guess it means good water management. Even straight sand won't be good and crumbly if it's saturated. It's easy to guess that knowing it was Scott Anderson's dirt, though."

Joe:

Definitely really good water management. I think the number for the A&B nine is something around 4-5 mil a year and when you add in the C nine I don't think it even tops 7. But obviously if a club reads or hears that they have to be aware that Scott and HVGC have been on this really dry and organic program for over a decade or more now. I guess one should never expect or assume that this kind of thing can be done quickly if a course is coming off a over-irrigated, chemical dependent program. The irony is for HVGC, and the kudos too, is that in the 1980s it came off one of the most over-irrigated programs you ever heard of---so bad in fact that the man in the club responsible for first turning it around referred to driving a cart down the middle of the fairways as "driving down the marsh". It was so bad that all of a sudden they lost it completely (in the 1980s)---the course just crapped out suddenly. At that point they fired the green committee and turned to a man named Linc Roden who fired the super and positioned Scott (who worked there, rather unhappily ) to take over and basically the two of them pretty much developed this program on their own, and for HVGC the rest is history. Back then, though, nobody around here was willing to listen---nobody even liked what they were doing---they thought they were crazy. The USGA didn't agree at all. Back then every other club around here would say things like, "Oh, that's just Linc and Scott and HVGC, they're crazy and they're only doing that because they have so many good tournament players over there." Most of the golfers around here who went over there back then, even the good tournament players around here, would play that course and freak out---basically most of them hated it because they had no idea how to play a course that firm and fast. But that began to change and now it's pretty much changed entirely.

Obviously, though, for other clubs listening to this and trying to learn from them, they have to understand that these things definitely have to be looked at in DEGREE!

And as much as I've always admired and respected Linc for what he did, I do admit, as others do, that he probably is a bit crazy when it comes to DEGREE. They had the state Am there this summer and unfortunately it poured on Monday. But you should have seen the way the course played the day before on Sunday. But Linc didn't think that was anywhere near fast enough, and so I said, "Linc, what is fast enough to you?", and Linc says; "Think concrete!!"

The guy's amazing!