News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2005, 02:59:59 PM »
RJ,

Yes I am planning my own project.  As a superintendent I have found that I probably will not be happy until I own and operate a golf course.  I would prefer to build a new course in the style and conditions we discuss here on GCA, but may have to purchase a 9 hole course with potential to go 18.  Next week I will finish a 2 year MBA odessey that I did online while positioned as a  GCS in central Oregon.  I hope the banks will see that as a positive and provide the funding for the project or purchase.  I am a hard fast traditionalist and admire the work of the classic architects and the courses.  I want the golfing public to experience golf the way it was meant to be play and at a very reasonable price.

Troy

Troy, I sincerely hope you keep a journal on your project and keep us all up to date on your progress. Some of my favorite stories on here have been the development on an idea, from dream to finished course.

Too many people involved in the industry seem reluctant to post their stories, since every time someone does so, someone else feels the need to chime in and accuse them of nefarious reasons other than simply sharing their passion. The site is worse off because of this.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2005, 03:01:23 PM »
Tim:  I've been trying not to comment at all, because as Mike points out, we did routings on this property for a previous owner and then didn't get the job when the new owner bought it.  So anything I say which is less than 100% positive will be seen as sour grapes, arrogance, etc.  I've already had enough of that for the weekend.

I know Ron Whitten has had a lot to do with the design here ... all the time he was visiting at Sebonack, he was on his way to or from Milwaukee, and he was on site as much as four days a week while they were shaping.  I don't think Mike Hurdzan or Dana Fry were there as much!  And I wonder what Rod Whitman was thinking while taking instructions from all those guys.  All told, it is at least as interesting a "collaboration" as Sebonack, so I hope all of you will switch to bugging the crap out of Ron as to who did what.  [Perhaps, to turn the tables, I should write a long article for one of the magazines about it!]

It's silly to suggest that any of them have changed their philosophy of design because of our work.  I've never been able to pin down what Hurdzan/Fry's style was to begin with, they seem to have built courses which are at odds with each other; but if they changed their philosophy they did so just for this site, because it was a great piece of property.  But then, they had to talk that talk to land the job to begin with.  As with Dismal River, I am anxious to see how well they can walk the walk.

It does make me cringe to see the course laid out at 8000 yards.  I know that was their client's mandate.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2005, 03:05:09 PM by Tom_Doak »

Bill Wernecke Jr

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2005, 03:17:06 PM »
Tom

Call me crazy, but if Hurdzan / Fry / Whitten build one great course according to the principles that we hold dear, then there is one more great course in the land.  When they saw the land, it might be that their experience seeing some of your courses and hearing the accolades that you got inspired them to abandon their previous style(s) and take a chance on doing it right.  You have been having a bad weekend so I am telling you -- have fun, take some credit for this!!!

I understand it is confusing when architects do not have a certain style or set of principles, but that is what I rely on this site for.  You guys tell me if a particular course is worth playing or not.  Not good for the public expecting something similar to one they liked.  But there is also the problem of owners mandating things.

Your Rod Whitman thoughts bring up the debate about "mongrel" courses, those designed by committee.  Usually from my experience this does not work, but sometimes it does.  So they were taking a big chance.  Wasn't Pine Valley kind of a mongrel course?  I have to say that, as I see it so far, it does look like they all worked together to make it consistent and it will all work out well.

Also, it looks like the walk from the 6700-7000 yard tees will be very reasonable, except for a few spots where the natural terrain was so spectacular that they took advantage of it for tees or greens.  Overall, I thought it was very walkable.

Chris_Hunt

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2005, 03:36:55 PM »
Several small points:

-I believe the average golfer will quickly tire of walking Erin Hills.  As the name suggests, it is very hilly, and that is when your ball is traveling on a straight path to the hole.  Many of the back tees are passed by the average golfer on the way to the shorter tees.  Off the top of my head, only #2, #3, #7, #8, and #12 are examples of where the back tees require an added walk that the normal golfer would avoid.  Several of the holes not mentioned, with #14 being the biggest example, require walks of at least 100 yards from green to the next middle tee.  I have not walked the place grassed (it is a tougher walk in the dirt, probably), but I know several 'we walk everything' guys that have were whipped by it.

-Bill, by your definition, the vast majority of golf courses would be mongrels, in my estimation, although Erin Hills had some unique components of collaboration, for sure.

-The designers of Erin Hills were certainly influenced by Tom and Bill (just like any golfer who has seen their work), as evidenced by who they got to shape the place, but they also made explicit efforts to stray from the visual comparisons...whether that is evident or not, we shall see.

-Ron Whitten was at least an equal partner is this design triumvirate, and based on days on-site as Tom mentioned, he may account for 80% of the total 'architect days' out there.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2005, 03:38:38 PM by Chris Hunt »

Bill Wernecke Jr

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2005, 03:43:18 PM »
Chris

It is definitely a hilly course. You are probably right, for those not accustomed to the hills, it might be quite a trek. The definitive test will be when this slightly overweight 50-year-old takes it on next summer.  Then I can give my final opinion

You are also right about almost all courses being mongrel courses (how about Augusta?), but I was referring more to starting out that way from the beginning.  I have seen the same thing in architecture -- brilliant and terrible buildings due to collaboration.  Collaboration per se does not seem to be bad, but for some reason it usually turns out wrong.

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2005, 03:59:45 PM »
Erin Hills is positioning itself to host a US Open. Whenever that happens 8000 yards will be necessary.

Chris_Hunt

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2005, 04:11:55 PM »
Bill-

Collaboration struggles if people fail to initially realize that compromise is easier said than done.  The most efficient (not necessarily the best) group efforts result when tasks are divided up based on skill sets.  One party or the other tackles certain problems, and the other party lives with the results.  Very rarely would each individual aspect of a job be argued out and judiciously decided upon, because it would take forever.  A lot of the success really relates to the motivations for the collaboration in the first place, and the ability of those involved to 'play nice' or get over the differences.

I, in my present role, prefer one set of instructions and not too many sources for feedback, however...

Mike-

I don't dispute the fact that the length might be needed for an Open in a decade.   My personal preference would be to cater fully to the golf being potentially played the other 3648 days.  At Erin Hills, with the severity of the land, that is a major challenge.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2005, 05:11:35 PM »
8000 yards?   1000 yards for 4 par "3s"  and then an average of 500 yards for the remaining 14 holes.  Any room for a short par 4?

Why not have the shortest walk for the most popular tee length i.e. 6700 yards and then walk back if you need to play the gorilla tees?

Are we going to have Erin Hills hsting the the US Open at 8000 yards and little Lytham hosting the British at 6900 yards?




« Last Edit: December 03, 2005, 08:28:14 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2005, 07:15:24 PM »
Yes there is no doubt that Erin Hills is a long course, but what is wrong with that?  Almost all of the back tees were already there when we began construction.  Hurdzan, Fry, and Whitten routed the course from natural tee site to natural green site.  The golf course was truly found.  Most of the tee sites were flat enough that before construction began, I would go around and play the golf course.  I just don’t see why it is such a big deal to have a long course, when that is what the terrain dictated.  Firm and fast fairways will make the course play shorter as well, which has been the architects plan since the start.   The irrigation system was designed to accommodate this belief, and the playing corridors are seeded with fescue grasses, which should play fast.  

Despite the courses length, there is a great variety of holes.  The par 3’s range in length from 165ish to 250ish.  All four of them are extremely different, and the 19th hole is excellent as well.  I believe the article was trying to say that the 19th hole could be used in tournaments instead of the dell styled par three.  Really the only thing it has in common with the original dell is the fact that the green is completely blind, and a rock will be used to signify where the flag is located.  

The par 4’s range from 340 to 500 yards.  There is a short par 4 on each side, and I believe that both of them will be drivable for longer hitters.  Erin Hills also has some excellent medium sized par 4’s.  Obviously there are a good number of long par 4’s, but each one asks the golfer to attack it in a different way.  Some of them allow for run up shots and on others the ball must be carried into the putting surface.  Some of them have large undulating greens while other ones are small and have sublime contours.  All the par fours are very different.  

The par 5’s are really interesting, and range from 560 to 660.  All four of them play in different directions, so some days one or two of them will play as three shot holes, while the other two will ask the long hitter to make a decision of whether to go for it or play it safe.  The greens on all three are very different and range in size from 13,000 to 3,000 square feet.  I think all golfers will really enjoy playing these holes.

Erin Hills is going to be a difficult walk, but very do able.  Green to tee walks are pretty minimal for the most part, for those playing  the back three sets of tees.  There are some pretty long walks for those playing the most forward tees.  I personally can’t wait to get a chance to go out there and walk with some of my buddies, because the scenery is second to none, and is best enjoyed while walking.  I believe the plan is to really encourage walking, with pull carts for those who want them.

Brendan  

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2005, 11:53:20 PM »
I'll never have to worry about playing a course at 7000, much less 8000 yards.  If they charge big money, I am not going to play way over my head and have a miserable grind.  I belong in the 6400-6800 range, and that is that.  I've played Whistling Straits 2X at about 6800 and it was too much.  

How many times to you think that the management of Erin Hills will ever set that course up more than 7100?  They have those back tees for elasticity to adjust to wind, and maybe that one outstanding time they hold a big toon-a-mint.  I wouldn't sweat this issue of fretting over how long it is.  You'll never see that (unless you are Matt Ward)  ;) ::)

I can't believe that the issue of walk or ride would boil down to an extra 50-100 yards from green to next tee.  As long as those walks aren't up steep rough inclines, walking ought not be a problem.  Hell, I'm 50lbs overweight and 57 years old, and I play[ed] 27 multiple times a week last season, walking (although I have yielded to a SunMountain push cart now) ::)

I know of very few gents my age that can't make 18 on most courses, if they are determined to get the most out of the game.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2005, 11:56:47 PM »
RJ:  An extra 100 yards from every green to tee would be an extra mile of walking.  It's probably not that far on every hole, but that is a big difference.  

And it's more than just the extra distance ... having a 100-yard walk from any green to tee disturbs the rhythm of playing golf.  Most of the cartball courses people whine about here have transitions no worse than that.  
« Last Edit: December 03, 2005, 11:58:44 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jim Nugent

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2005, 01:56:34 AM »
OT, but Tom's last post reminded me of a question I've always wondered about.  On average, how far do you walk over the course of 18 holes?  Figure a 6600 yard course, with "normal" distances between greens and tees.  I assumed something like six miles, but wonder if anyone has something more precise.  

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2005, 02:03:51 AM »
Jim,

I think the answer lies partly in how badly one sprays the ball.

The first time we visited Bandon Dunes, one of our caddies told us the average trek there was 7.5 miles at Bandon and 6 miles at Pacific.  I could have those flip-flopped as it was some time ago.  Based on some of the walks (3 to 4, 6 to 7, etc.) I think I have it in the right order.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2005, 05:06:24 PM »
I don't understand the whining about 8,000 yards.

You would not ski the Olympic Downhill venue straight down, would ya?

You would more likely zig-zag. Likewise, if you choose to play Erin Hills from the tips, you'll have to make use more strokes.

8,000 yards is strictly for the pros, who play a game most at GCA are unfamiliar with.

Judging from the 8,000 yard info, Erin Hills, per its owner request, was designed with pros in mind.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2005, 05:49:41 PM »
Brendan & Voytek,

I think many on here fear that 8,000 yard will become the new "7,000 yard" standard of the 1970's-1980's. What did that entail over the past few decades? The misguided renovations at many classic golf courses, which placed card length over design integrity and interest. Further, if new golf course construction requires land to accomodate an 8,000 yard behemoth, then once again we will see the escalating cost and time of golf push more and more people to the periphery, and quickly out of the game entirely. Remember, while only the professionals will play from the 8,000 yard tees, EVERYBODY is paying for the added acreage and associated costs.

TK

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2005, 05:53:02 PM »
Quote
Remember, while only the professionals will play from the 8,000 yard tees, EVERYBODY is paying for the added acreage and associated costs.

Well said Ty.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2005, 09:21:53 PM »
Erin Hills can be stretched to over 8,000 yards, but I believe that the actual back tees will be around 7,500 yards give or take.  On some holes there are additional tees behind where the back tees will be set up on a day to day basis.   I believe that the tees can be used by those who want to challenge them, and will help to deal with any technology issues in the coming years.  Hopefully the USGA will take care of the length issue.

Brendan          

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2005, 11:31:37 AM »
don't hold your breath re your last sentence, Brendan!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2005, 12:15:20 PM »
On the contrary, judging from their comments about Erin Hills, the USGA seems positively giddy that someone is building an 8000 yard course which they might use for a championship someday.

It's not that we fear 8000 yards will become the new standard, but I do fear that if technology is allowed to make 8000 yards playable, then the great 6500 yard courses will all be reduced to nothing.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 12:17:16 PM by Tom_Doak »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2005, 01:01:03 PM »
Tom D:  aren't 6500 yd courses already reduced to nothing for the top players?  Merion jumps to mind:  it WAS 6482 from the tips.....they are now way past that
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2005, 01:43:06 PM »
Paul:  I'm not talking about the top players.  (They don't pay the bills anyway.)  I'm concerned that we will soon get to the point where 6500 yards no longer provides enough variety of shotmaking for you and me.  

ForkaB

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2005, 02:18:06 PM »
Tom

Do you really want to say that Merion or Dornoch, or Cypress point or Crystal Downs or Rye (just to name a few 6500 yard or less courses) "no longer provide enough variety of shotmaking for you and me?"  Maybe you, Buckaroo, but I'm not that good, yet!

Troy Alderson

Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2005, 02:52:36 PM »
George,
I will keep a journal and photo journal when the project starts.  It is my belief that golf has become too expensive in the US due to several factors and we must bring the cost down in order to grow the game for the public.  Otherwise golf will become an rich man sport again strictly.  I have been researching the project for years now and hve determined how I want the golf course generally laid out (3 loops of 6 holes), total organic program, how it is irrigated and mowed, and what the clubhouse operations will look like.  I hope GCA will provide additional resources to make this happen asap.  Now I just have to find the funding.

RJ,
I could not agree with you more, play the right yardage for your game and leave the ego at home.  Yet, I still play from the back tees at my home course at 6352 yards and struggle when I am not playing enough.

Tyler,
I think you may have come up with something, pay per yard.  If you want to play the back tees then you pay more than those playing from the shorter tees.  I may incorporate that into my project golf course when it happens.

Troy

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2005, 06:04:10 PM »
Rich:

No, thank God, I don't think we are there yet.  But if the USGA guys just take their hands off the wheel completely in the assumption that someone will build 8000 yard courses for their championships, then 6500 yards could wind up playing like 6000-yard courses do today.

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Article on Erin Hills
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2005, 07:50:42 PM »
I am with you all, in hoping that the USGA takes care of the length problems.  Tom as you probably know the site also has some great features for hosting a tournament.  Plenty of room for parking in the surrounding area.  With nearly 600 acres tents and other needs are not a huge problem.  The course is perfect for spectators, as there are many great vantage points through out the site.  I personally do not believe that the only reason the USGA is gushing is due to the length that the course could play at.

Brendan

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back