[Jeff Goldman]

With any luck, below is a link to an article from golfcoursenews about Erin Hills, which has been the subject of some discussion here lately.  I don't think the article was posted here yet.  According to the article, a total of 10,000 yards of dirt was moved, on just 4 holes.  It has a Dell hole (as well as the previously discussed biarritz green), and some other interesting stuff.  Apparently all who have seen the site thought it was tremendous.  Soil suppposed to excellent as well, not the usual midwestern clay.  Greens are California sand greens, rather than USGA, planted with A-4.  Here's hoping.

http://www.golfcoursenews.com/articles/article.asp?MagID=1&ID=503&IssueID=33

[George Pazin]

Thanks for posting the link, Jeff.

Mike McGuire posted this photo the other day of Erin Hills. Pretty damn impressive in appearance.



I don't know what is bigger: my list of must read books or must play courses.

[Mike Hendren]

George,

I'm with you.  Lawsonia Links can't be too far away either I assume?

Mike

[Troy Alderson]

Jeff,

With so little good land left for great golf courses, it is nice to see a course come along once in a while that says differently.  I would assume that the best land these days is away from the population centers, for the most part.

George,

Thank you for the picture.  The course is starting to look like a golf course now, as opposed to the pictures in the article.  I liked the approach the owner had with the golf course and growing it in and when it is open for play.  Mainly, let the fescues grow and thicken at a 4 inch cut before cutting down to normal golf course hieghts of cut.

I am looking forward to the USGA championship there in 2008 and what condition the course will be in.  It is also good to see developers looking for quality land and quality golf first and not making the most money possible as quickly as possible.  I know when my golf course project starts I will look towards turf health first and profits second as much as possible.

Troy

[Bill Wernecke Jr]

There are a lot of great things about this course, but speaking for myself, my favorite aspect is the movement of the fairways, which is all natural.  The unusual terrain of the Kettle Moraine is very unique.  Mike McGuire's picture gives you some idea and there are many holes like that.

There is a Dell hole which is already controversial so there is a 19th hole that can be played instead.

Erin Hills is about 60 minutes from downtown Milwaukee and about two hours from Lawsonia.

The owner hopes to open it mid-summer.

Mike McGuire and I had lunch today so we will keep you posted!

[Jeff Goldman]

Are there other Hurdzan/Fry courses around Milwaukee or Chicago?  The only one I can think of right off is Blackthorn, in South Bend.

[Bill Wernecke Jr]

Troy Burne in Wisconsin near Minneapolis and Weaver Ridge (?) in Peoria are the closest that I know of

[Jeff Goldman]

Good call on WeaverRidge Bill, I forgot about it even though I made a hole in 3 on 17 there.  Some good stuff and some fairly ridiculous stuff (there is a drop shot par 3 with a huge drop; you'd think you were in the mountains somewhere).

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, I'm glad you started a separate Erin Hills thread, as I was confused trying to keep up with
mention of it on 3 different threads.

Troy, welcome newcomer.  Are you a super, where?  Are you planning your own project?

I have questions, I hope anyone connected with Erin Hills can answer, or at least one of our regular GC archies might help me understand.

The articles says this:

Twelve or 13 of the fairways were not altered at all, according to Fry. Landscapes Unlimited mowed the grass, installed the irrigation, applied three applications of Roundup and seeded straight into the soil. The land was so perfect for golf that Landscapes Unlimited irrigated more than half the holes before crews moved any dirt at all.

And Grieser’s crews did little topsoil stripping to keep the land’s organic content. They simply scraped off the top and cored out the green sites to install drainage and build California-style sand greens, retaining all the contours. Fine fescue was planted directly into all the fairways and roughs, while A-4 bentgrass was used on the greens and Penncross on the tees.

Looking at the above photo, how can you seed directly to that soil for fairways?  I have walked a good number of kettle-morraine properties in that area myself.  The glacial till of rocks as seen above is common.  How do you prevent the rocks from surfacing every season with freeze-thaw cycles as we have here?  Similarly, how do you trench irrigation lines in without backfilling sand and basing pea gravel (not this conglomerate rocky stuff) without the freeze-thaw breaking your lines?  

Don't get me wrong here.  This course is the bomb!  I am thrilled for Dr. Hurdzan, Fry, Whitten, and supporting cast like Rod Whitman, to create what is shaping up to be something VERY SPECIAL here in Wisconsin.  The cheeseheads are on a roll!

Mr Trattner, I am totally jealous of you for finding this land, finding a serious developer, and ramrodding such a project.  As I allude to above, I have been a wandering cheesehead in Badger land looking over hill and dale for the same sort of deal.  You lucky stiff!

[Chris_Hunt]

RJ-

The picture you are looking of is probably taken somewhere in the middle of the core excavation process of building this green floor.  You have to remove a foot of material to build the well, then drain it and fill with sand to make the California green.  Seeding directly into the subsoil pictured would be problematic to say the least.  The entire site varied in its underlying rockiness, as you might imagine.  There are many really rocky spots, some heavy clay spots, and a few places where you hit fairly pure sand.  Fickle glacier movement and melting rates...

The fairways that weren't shaped went undisturbed in order to avoid bringing up this kind of rock.  In many instances, seed was laid right on top of dead grass still remaining from the Round-up procedure.  Where fairways were shaped and this many rocks were encountered, a tospoil cap would have been employed.

[Brendan Dolan]

RJ,

As I have mentioned previously, I interned out there all last year.  The picture you have posted is of the tenth green after it had been stripped.  Prior to construction there was much debate in how the fairways should be seeded for a number of reasons.  First as you mention the soil beneath the grass is quite rocky.  To take care of this problem we would have had to till the fairways, and then machine rock pick, which in the end would have lead to a more manufactured look.  

It was really important to the architects to preserve the natural little humps, rolls, and dips.  Thus they had all the grass killed, and then rock picked with a machine, all the rocks that were on top of the soil.  This also meant countless hours of picking up rocks by hand.  Next we slit seeded, which turned up more rocks that had to be picked up by hand.  In the end though the playing corridors , have a natural look, with bumps and dips that will add to the challenge of playing at Erin Hills.

The picture George posted is of the 12th hole.  It plays over and around some of the most unique terrain on the course.

Brendan  

[RJ_Daley]

Thanks for the comments Chris and Brendan.  I sat through a seminar of Dr. Mike extolling he virtues of
a California Sand green years ago.  I could kick myself for not going down there last year
to hang around and make myself a nuisance inorder to watch the work in progress.    

PS: it just hit me Brendan, how you got the gig.  With an Irish name like that, in the town of Erin, on Dublin Rd, ner Murphy and Malloy Lake, it is a no-brainer!!!

[RJ_Daley]

If anyone needs to spot Erin Hills on the map, it is there next to Holy Hill!
http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=16&X=121&Y=1495&W=1&qs=%7cPlymouth%7cWisconsin

[Troy Alderson]

RJ,

Yes I am planning my own project.  As a superintendent I have found that I probably will not be happy until I own and operate a golf course.  I would prefer to build a new course in the style and conditions we discuss here on GCA, but may have to purchase a 9 hole course with potential to go 18.  Next week I will finish a 2 year MBA odessey that I did online while positioned as a  GCS in central Oregon.  I hope the banks will see that as a positive and provide the funding for the project or purchase.  I am a hard fast traditionalist and admire the work of the classic architects and the courses.  I want the golfing public to experience golf the way it was meant to be play and at a very reasonable price.

Troy

[Cliff Hamm]

 Additionally, Erin Hills will be affordable for a championship course of this caliber

Above quote from the EH web page.  After reading the article about construction where it is stated that very little land was moved, greens were already there, and 12 or 13 fairways were essentially seeded after weed removal shouldn't fees be quite low?  It would seem that development costs should be very significantly lower than other courses unless land acquisition was astronomical.  Shouldn't so-called minimalist designs stop the surge of triple digit greens fees?

[Cliff Hamm]

Just found this quote on a link on the EH web page - Lang said he hopes to keep the green fees somewhere around $125. If that's the case, it will be the biggest bargain in Wisconsin golf, and maybe in the country.

While still higher than I might wish I must credit Mr. Lang for not attempting to unduly profit from the hype surrounding this course.  I hope that if the course is as successful as many believe, greens fees stay relatively low and  don't suddenly double.  As I type this I choke that $125 for a round of golf is low but that's the state of quality golf in 2005 and maybe why many courses seem to be in trouble.

[RJ_Daley]

Cliff, as you undoubtedly know $125 is about < half of Blackwolf Run River, and almost 1/3 the Straits.  I believe the Nicklaus design , the Bull at Pinehust Farms is in the ~$150.

The land here in WI, and that beautiful kettle morraine area isn't all that cheap.  Not chaep that close to Milwaukee.  That whole area is cottage area for Milwaukee and Chicago get aways.  It is not in Long Island $ territory mind you. But, it sounds like construction costs and grow in won't be too harsh there at Erin Hills.  

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff, as you undoubtedly know $125 is about < half of Blackwolf Run River, and almost 1/3 the Straits.  I believe the Nicklaus design , the Bull at Pinehust Farms is in the ~$150.

Agreed. Exactly my point.  I must congratulate Mr Lang for not charging more just to make a quick buck.  At the same time $125 is not cheap and when this is considered a bargain it says something about the current state of golf.  I simply lament that quality public golf has become excessively expensive.  Years ago I stopped downhill skiing because I didn't think the cost was worth it.  At that time typical greens fees were less than a lift ticket.  Now lift tickets, I believe, are in the $50-$60 range at top resorts and greens fees of triple digits are not unusual.

[Brendan Dolan]

Just thought every one might enjoy a couple of more photos:



This is the picture of the 2nd green from about 50 yards away in the landing area.  The putting surface is the smallest on the course at 3,000 sq. ft.  This should be an interesting short par four, for the big hitter.
 

This is the tee shot on the par 4 3rd.  This hole is going to be a brute, as it measures around 500 yards.  After a good drive the golfer needs to place his approach on the right deck of this three tiered green.  It will be a great challenge.


The fifth is another great hole.  This is about a hundred yards short of the green.  For me this is one of the neatest green sites that I have ever seen.  The green is very subtle and is very punchbowl in style.

     

[Paul_Turner]

Intriguing terrain and holes.    Have the architects kept the walking between tee and green to a minimum?

That green looks miniscule!

I don't like the idea of the 19th hole to play if you don't like the Dell.  Shows a lack of commitment.

8100 yards?  No length increase justifies that.

[Tim Liddy]

Seeing photos of Erin Hills makes me wonder what Tom Doak is thinking. Here is a group of architects and writer/architect that have completely changed there philosophy towards golf course architecture because of his writings and work. I know some of it is site specific, but they also hired Rod Whitman, to shape the greens, C and C’s premier guy and a great architect in his own right (I wonder what kind of credit he will get, if any).

It is a great accomplishment by Doak and the snow ball is just beginning to roll. There are so many other great aspects to this as well.  These golf courses are environmental more sound, better agronomics (topsoil is not raped) and greater thought and sensitivity on so many levels.

[Mike McGuire]

Seeing photos of Erin Hills makes me wonder what Tom Doak is thinking.

Tim -

I think Tom is a little miffed. Wasn't this course his commision at one point?

Thank you for pointing out he should be proud.

[RJ_Daley]

Tim, your thoughts on the issue of collaboration, and who gets credit is something that we will perhaps have to deal with more intensively, as it seems to me, the use of "outsiders" is becoming more prevalent.  You yourself gave credit to many who helped at the Dukes Course, which is generous.  We know that Tom D., has used outsiders who have been associated with other design teams.  This is a good thing in my view, because it cross-pollenates good ideas and techniques to the benefit of the profession advancing in quality.  

But, when we say Hurdzan Fry, will we add Whitten or Whitman.  That will get confusing.

Here on GCA.com, many of us know the insider staffs and personalities of Renaissance Golf, Hanse, C&C, etc.  It doesn't take a genius to know that the front names are dependent on their staffs, as is the team dependent on a captain.

The feature interviews here offers discussion by the principals of the various teams who give credit to their staffs by name.  But, the magazines, and general publicity never really acknowledge names of shapers and the artists that give the courses their real character.  Should we expect more recognition for support staff or outside collaborators on special projects like this?

[George Pazin]

Wow, thanks for posting those photos, Brendan. Erin Hills just moved way up on my wish list.

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see it maintained like that last photo, though I'm guessing that was just a grow in photo. Maintenance wise it looks like one of those English courses Paul Turner is always posting (but hasn't recently, nudge nudge ).

I'm curious to see how the super gigantic length affects walkability. Hard to imagine it won't affect the flow, but I'm hoping it doesn't.

[Bill Wernecke Jr]

Re Greens Fees:  The owner told me he has a strong commitment to keeping them at a reasonable level.  He wanted to keep them under $100, but I don't know if that is possible.

He showed me a blueprint of the clubhouse.  There will be some overnight rooms there for those who come from out-of-town.  After all, Mike McGuire and I can only have so many stay at our homes!

Tom Doak should be proud.  There are so many developers now who understand the benefits of links golf and natural courses, and Tom has had a lot to do with that.  I don't know what happened between he and Bob Lang (the owner); obviously we were all excited about having a Doak course so close, but these things happen.  It looks like he picked up a few other decent commissions instead (!!).

On-site, Bob Land gave a lot of credit to Rod Whitman, so he is very aware of his skill and contributions.  The bunkers look terrific already and they have not put the sand in yet!

Bill

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