Primo?

[TEPaul]

Recently, in some conversations with some dedicated firm and fast supers the subject of Primo came up. They seemed to swear by it, even intimate it's indespensible to their firm and fast programs.

It's a growth regulator, right? Is it also what some of you F&F guys use to do what you call "pre-stress" grass?

Supers and F&F supers, do you consider Primo indispensible to your programs?

How expensive is it?

What's it made out of?

Does it seem to have the same effect in most all regions and most all grass strains?

[JESII]

I'm assuming Scott Anderson is one of the guys you spoke with?

I know growth regulation is a significant practice at HVCC, the rest of your questions are obviously beyond me.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom the link is about as good as any explanation...

http://www.sodsolutions.com/turfmgt/growth_retardants.html

Supression of poa with primo and longer mowing intervals with cutless.  Every weather region, soil, etc., requires the skill of the local super to know when enough is enough, and when to back off of lean and mean practices a little.  I may be idealistic and maybe tend to invent the notion of the wizardry of some of these old turfheads to accomplish amazing things, but I suspect that knowing how to achieve the f&f, lean to the bone, but healthy condition is as much the touch of an artist as it is knowing the nuts and bolts learned at a school like Penn State.  Both sets of knowledge are important, but I think a fellow can be book smart and not that good in the field if he don't have that extra sense of knowing his turf sward's individual habits and needs.

[Don_Mahaffey]

At my course here in Central Oregon we were on an intensive primo program on our blue/rye/poa fairways. The benefits were:
   •Mowed three times a week instead of four or five.
   •Very little flush growth during optimum growing conditions.
   •Very few clippings to deal with.
   •The turf sure seemed a lot more resistant to stresses - a lot fewer hot spots, we used less water then the year before and it wasn’t because it was cooler and rained more.
   •A denser more fine textured turf.
   
 The negatives:
   •It’s not cheap, about $45 an acre every two weeks all season long can add up, although with reduced mowing and increased turf quality I think it’s a no-brainer.
   •At the rates I was spraying you will get some yellowing and I had to add iron to the mix to keep everyone happy.
   •If you think it’s going to ding back the poa, think again, Poa loves the stuff and if you’re trying to keep the poa out, or hurt it I’d use a different product. (RJ, yes if you mix with cutlass or proxy it will suppress seedheads, but primo alone will not do anything to the poa other then make it a better golf turf, IMO)

To be fair we also aerified more intensely and have been on an organic fertilizer program on fairways for a couple of years. The improved playability and look of my fairways is a result of the overall management plan, but use of primo is one large piece of the puzzle.

[S. Huffstutler]

Discovering Primo is like discovering beer.... It's a wonderful thing. I spray my Champion greens with it every week and my fairways and tees once a month. The turf is tighter, tougher and produces far fewer clippings. I can mow at relatively high HOC's and maintain a reasonable green speed (10 - 11).

steve

[Donnie Beck]

I have used Primo religiously for the last 6 years. In this time I have made a few observations. 1st the more you use it the more you have to increase your rates to keep the grass regulated. By the end of September I was up to 10oz/acre per week on greens. 2nd I am not 100% sure, but this year I started wondering if there is a correlation between the use of primo and thatch accumulation. At 2-2 ½ lbs N per year I have had to aerify twice a year with 5/8 tines and deep verticut with the sisis in the fall on top of bi-weekly topdressings to keep ahead of the thatch accumulations. I am going to see if anyone has done any university studies to back up my thoughts. With the plant sending more of its energy to the roots it makes sense that it may cause thatch to accumulate faster. All in all even if this is the case I will still continue to use the product as I feel it helps the overall health and playability of the grass. With long-term use you may have to adjust your thatch management practices accordingly.

[Duane Sharpe]

I believe Primo to be very beneficial on Poa Annua greens because of the seed head growth.  On my A-4 greens, as long as I manage my fertility program they do not grow fast enough to warant Primo.
In the end, I think if you watch what you feed the grass, primo can be used spariingly.  If you are forced to have an Augusta looking course, perfectly green and lush everyday where you are feeding and watering like crazy, Primo is a must and an exceptional tool to control the growth but keep the color.
Super
Blackhawk Golf Club

[peter_p]

Tom and Dick,
here;s link to another study http://turf.ufl.edu/research/papers/research/Papers/pgrseeds.htm

[Donnie Beck]

Tom,

Here is a good article about how primo works.

http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=92965

[TEPaul]

Don Mahaffey:

In the last few days I've heard you praised and a number of kudos given to you within your profession. Unfortunately, those that mentioned this do not want to be known by name. So now, knowing this, you go out and have a nice day, even if you will never know who it is out there who've been praising you!  

[TEPaul]

DonM:

Your reply #3 is fantastic. That one is printoutable and into the file it goes to be extracted in a heartbeat and discussed in various appropriate situations, discussions, meetings etc on the subject of you know what. No wonder there're all these people in your profession out there singing your praises whose names you'll never be able to hear from me.  

Thank you.

[TEPaul]

" I can mow at relatively high HOC's and maintain a reasonable green speed (10 - 11)."

Steve:

Very interesting---matter of fact really interesting. I'd not heard that one before yesterday from a Northwestern super.

He started talking about the fact that with a relatively high HOC (I would have called it really high) he says he gets a much better green speed when his grass is dry compared to when it's basically over-irrigated at the same HOC.

This might be in the same realm as something Mike Davis (USGA Competition Director) told me last year during a general discussion on green speeds. Mike said he felt there was like a wet 11 and a dry 11!!

Now to me, that was unfathomable because what does the ball care what it's rolling across--I mean 11 is 11-- but I think I'm beginning to get it. Interesting stuff and obviously something that can and does result in both the health and preformance of grass.

How much do you roll, Steve?

[TEPaul]

By the way, Steve, if you have any real slope and contour on your greens, in my opinion, a REAL 10-11 is sort of pushing the envelop on what might be referred to as reasonable.

[Joe Hancock]

Don,

Don't listen to TEPaul. I'll always be one who gives you kudos without hiding behind anonymity!

Joe

[TEPaul]

Donnie:

I sure didn't expect my two separate but simultaneous threads ("Primo?" and "Thatch?") to come together but apparently they are.

Interesting stuff!

It wasn't you Joe, not yesterday anyway. Have a nice day DonM.  

[TEPaul]

"I believe Primo to be very beneficial on Poa Annua greens because of the seed head growth.  On my A-4 greens, as long as I manage my fertility program they do not grow fast enough to warant Primo."

DuaneS:

I think I'll take that one to my super to discuss. We have A-4. Thanks.

[Donnie Beck]

I have found that Primo alone has very little effect on seed heads, but mixed with Proxy can be very effective. Proxy was just labeled for use in Suffolk County a few years ago. I have used the combination with mixed result. Timing is EXTREMELY important has you have to apply while the seed heads are in the boot stage. I am looking forward to another attempt this spring.

[TEPaul]

".....Timing is EXTREMELY important has you have to apply while the seed heads are in the boot stage."

Boot stage?? What's that? Is it like when the seed heads are real young and they're still in their little "booties"? Do they still have their diapers on too? Are you saying when the seed heads start wearing street shoes or boxers or briefs it's too late to apply Primo/Proxy?? How in the hell do you guys come up with all this stuff? These rich American country club golfers ought to triple the salaries of you guys if they know what's good for them. How much do top-notch doctors make?

[Donnie Beck]

A few more articles of interest.

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2003/july_aug/field-testing.html

http://www.interactiveturf.com/Research/research_Poa_2005413.htm

[Robert Emmons]

We also use Primo for all bunker banks to slow down growth and give us time before we have to go back and mow at Huntington C.C.

[S. Huffstutler]

TEP: You are right about 10-11 being too fast, I should have made that statement a little clearer. I try to maintain my greens at a speed somewhere between 9.5 and 10. My membership is elderly and they just can't handle really fast greens. Really, anything over 10 causes a huge slowdown in my little golf factory. That said, I am finding it much easier to speed them up now that I have a good grass and I can mow at .125 / .130 and maintain 9.5 - 10 without a lot of work. It's like driving a Ferrari at the speed limit where before, I had an old pickup that I was running wide open all the time. I spray 2 oz/ac per week year around and have seen no tolerance or reduction in regulation, but that might be a difference between bermuda and poa, I don't know. I know that the labeled rates for ryegrass are twice the rate for bermuda, so I guess maybe cool season grass has a higher tolerance for the chemical. I roll once a week, during high season I will roll as often as I can, but I am limited by 7am tee times on both nines. I am hoping that as time goes on and I can shake some more money out of them, I will be able to send two rollers out during the season, then I will probably roll 2 - 3 times a week. ight now, I skip mowing one day a week and just roll, nobody can tell the difference.

Regards,

Steve

[Joe Hancock]

I think it's important to point out that Primo alone will not speed up all grasses. I found the speed issue quite the opposite on my push up greens that are covered with Penncross bent, primarily. The older grasses are a bit broader and not as dense by nature. Therefore, when Primo is applied to these older bents. the turf gains a lot of density in the canopy. While the speeds initially became more consistent through the day, they were slower due to the amount of grass on the ground. I find I have to water and fertilize less, along with verticutting(thinning) more and other cultural and mechanical practices to achieve more speed. The thing is that the grass is healthier and it allows more of these practices to occur, even when the weather isn't so conducive to it.

Don't go begging your super to get on a Primo program just because you heard it makes the greens faster. It isn't that easy.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"Don't go begging your super to get on a Primo program just because you heard it makes the greens faster. It isn't that easy."

Joe:

I hope this thread and subject doesn't morph into a discussion about how to get higher green speed. That's not why I started this thread on Primo. I think the subject of Primo occured to me because after spending a few days taking some guys from Fox Chapel around to talk to a few supers around Philly who I know are guys who're into programs of firm and fast, low irrigation and to varying degrees "organics" and less chemical dependency. I just happened to notice they all swore by Primo. So I started wondering if Primo was some kind of semi-necessary tool to start down the road to generally much drier conditions on courses.

From what a few of the supers who answered on here said it looks like Primo does create a situation or condition where less water is needed. Obviously it may not be as simple as thinking it can all be done with Primo but it appears to be a very beneficial contributor, for various reasons, to drier conditions and all the good stuff for playabilty and grass health that can come with that (drier conditions) eventually.

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

Good points that are valid. Speed is only one area that is affected by Primo. I made my comments, however, in the context of knowing how information can become policy without much understanding.

Joe

[Jim Thompson]

Joe,

Do you think it would be beneficial to the non turfers if I posted Roger's programs?

JT