Flynn's Redan Concepts

[John_Cullum]

On another thread, preeminent author and Flynn authority W. Morrisson states to the effect that Flynn incorporated redan hole concept into his designs, but did not design a "redan hole" per se. Did Flynn openly acknowledge this inspiration, or did he merely go with the occasional midlength par 3 with a bunker left front.

[Kyle Harris]

John,

The 3rd at Huntingdon Valley is probably as close to a "classic" Redan as Flynn got, and it's pretty darn close. Wayne could probably say if he ever intentionally built a redan or redan feature, but I'm not sure.

With Flynn, his redan-ish holes seem to be longer, as if he grabbed the back of the green and the back of the back tee and pulled. I call this a "Flynn Stretched Redan," myself.

See: 10 at Rolling Green and 3 at Huntingdon Valley as an example of this. The 6th at Manufacturer's also sorta meets this description.

[wsmorrison]

John,

Great questions.  Flynn did not, in any of his writings, mention any influences, conceptual or otherwise, on his hole designs.  To look at the entire body of his work it is easy to recognize the influences of Pine Valley and of Merion.  In each case it is not that easy to determine which direction the influence lies if you know what I mean.

Flynn was clearly inspired by some holes, for instance the 7th at Pine Valley as he created a close copy of it at Boca Raton South on the 17th hole and varied more so conceptually at Cherry Hills on coincidentally its 17th.

As for the Redan concept, Flynn seemed to have his own variations which did not resemble the original very closely.  Flynn's variations had more of a narrow and steep slope to the green.  The ability to play a run-up shot was not encouraged as the openings were normally pretty tight for the distance played.  I'd say the Redan-like hole at Huntingdon Valley, the third has a wider opening but a fairly steep slope.  In Flynn's variations the object was to land the ball on the green, generally into the bolster on one side and feed the ball to the hole.  It is an example of Flynn being a transition architect towards a combination of aerial shot demands and ground and aerial shot options.

Huntingdon Valley #3
The left side of the green was built up by Joe Kirkwood.  The green used to fall off the left side so that only well-executed shots would hold the green:



Philadelphia Country Club #7 (my mother-in-law aced this hole twice)  Notice the narrow opening and steep upslope:



Philadelphia Country Club #11
It looks like it could play like a Redan but the green does not slope right to left and there is no functional kicker:



And then there is the 7th at Shinnecock Hills.  There is some controversy among the treehouse but I am convinced that the records prove that the green is Flynn on the former site of the Macdonald green.  This photo shows the approach from the abandoned Flynn tee.  Today the hole is played from the former Macdonald tee.  The steep upslope does not encourage the ground approach (although there is a wide-enough opening) as does most of the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks versions:

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

I do not see the 10th at Rolling Green to be a variation of the Redan.  There is a slope towards the middle from both flanks of the green and the green isn't set off on much of an angle to the line of play.

You may be right that Flynn's Redan-like holes were longer than some truer Redans by others.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
You beat me to the punch about #3 at Huntingdon Valley.  It no longer looks or plays like a redan with that change to the green.  I wouldn't call #10 at Rolling Green a redan either.  

Here is one of my favorites by Tillie.  Everyone knows where this one is from!



Mark

[Troy Alderson]

Mark,

Sorry, I do not get around as much as the rest of you.  Where is the redan hole picture from that you posted?  Very well designed.

Troy

[wsmorrison]

Troy,

It is #2 at Somerset Hills by Tillinghast.  See Ran's write-up in the Courses by Country feature on the menu to the right of the screen.

[RE Blanks]

Wayne, your photo of PCC #7.  Have the trees been removed on the left side?  Trying to remember the hole.  Thanks

[SPDB]

Wayne - What's up with the trees being planted to the right/behind #11?

[wsmorrison]

REB,

Yes, the vegetation has been cut waaaay back on the left side of 7.  You can see the creek that's in there and cuts in front of the forward tee on 2.

SPDB,

You know what, I first noticed them when I posted the picture earlier today.  I don't recall them at all.  They are hideous and replaced trees that were there though 75 years tall.  I'm almost positive they've been removed and there aren't any trees on the green side of the path.  The club had to reforest for all the trees they took out but they did it in groves out of play.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I do not see the 10th at Rolling Green to be a variation of the Redan.  There is a slope towards the middle from both flanks of the green and the green isn't set off on much of an angle to the line of play.

You may be right that Flynn's Redan-like holes were longer than some truer Redans by others.

Wayne, sorry if I misrepresented my thoughts. I did not mean to intend that it was a variation or version of a Redan. However, while the green may have an opening that is more or less in line with the hole, I think you'll agree that the actual line of play is still well left of the green due to the severe slope.

Unless the green is carried by the tee shot, any shot aimed directly at the middle of the approach will kick into the bunkers left.

To me, this is a redan-ish type shot, if not a redan type hole.

In many ways, Flynn did this landing ramp sort of things on other holes - like the 18th at Huntingdon Valley or the 11th at Manufacturers'.

[Mark_Fine]

An earlier view of #11 at Philly CC.  Those newly planted trees in the other photo might not make it through the winter  

[mike_malone]

Kyle,

  The features I find appealing about #10 at Rolling Green would not be those one associates with a redan. While I agree that shots short (if aimed left of center) are likely to kick into the bunker , shots that land on the LEFT side of the green actually kick to the right. Most people just assume EVERYTHING goes left on this hole , but that is not so.  Also, if one hits it a little right of the green it goes straight or right . People are puzzled because there is a blind spot over there and everyone just assumes it will go left.They get annoyed when they end up in the right bunker or worse yet shortsided with a shot over the bunker.


  I have , of course, figured out how to make a hole-in-one here . Wayne , unfortunately , has not so I would not pay any attention to his thoughts on this hole
   
   My favorite feature is movement from fairway to green surface with no change in elevation. I wonder if that is also not "redanish".

[wsmorrison]

Mike Malone,

Watch how you disparage me buddy boy or I'll demand a limo for that speech to your Rotary Club tomorrow.  Either that or I'll no show and the crowd will then be bored to tears as you recount your two aces in excrutiatingly mind-numbing detail.  They'll all quit and become Lions by the time you're through!

If I played 120 rounds a year like you do rather than 12, I might have had an ace by now as well.  I've never seen a guy play as much as you and still stink.  What's that all about  

[mike_malone]

I'm living proof that playing alot does  not make you better. I just keep groovin' that lousy swing.

 

[wsmorrison]

Don't forget that you are also living proof that the more you think about golf architecture the less you might end up knowing  

[Tyler Kearns]

An earlier view of #11 at Philly CC.  Those newly planted trees in the other photo might not make it through the winter  

Mark,

When they completed the tree removal at Philadelphia CC, why would they not keep a few of the best specimen trees behind the green at #11, rather than planting new trees which will take forever until they add to the appearance of the hole.

TK

[Mike Hendren]

Wonderful pictures.  Thank you.

Excepting the 7th at Shinnecock,the "entry" to these greens generally look claustrophobic.  Should the kick-plate be more inviting, if not more forgiving?  

Mike

[TEPaul]

"Mark,
When they completed the tree removal at Philadelphia CC, why would they not keep a few of the best specimen trees behind the green at #11, rather than planting new trees which will take forever until they add to the appearance of the hole.
TK"

Mark:

Do you know the answer to Tyler's question?

Tyler:

If Mark doesn't know the answer to that, I'll tell you why it happened that way.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tyler,
Let's put it this way, no trees belong behind that green.  However, sometimes you have to "placate" those who disagree by planting a few to get what you need done.  That would be my guess.  They don't look too healthy to me though.  Do they to you?  Get my drift  

There is a noteworthy Tillinghast course in New York that I did some tree management consulting on a few years ago.  During a visit to the course about six months after having presented my recommendations, I noticed many of the trees I wanted "removed" were taken down.  However, there were about a dozen planted in select spots around the golf course (mostly in bad locations).  I complemented the Grounds Chairman on following through on the removals.  However, I told him that I couldn't believe that all those new ones were planted.  His response to me was, "Mark don't worry about those trees.  They were planted to appease a few members who were against taking down the ones we removed.  Those new ones won't last the winter."  

Mark

[Sean_A]

Help me out folks.  Some of these photos seem to depict the tee shots as down hill.  Is not a proper Redan slightly uphill?  Perhaps an uphill shot encourages the ground game.  On these downhill shots I envision flying to the green to eliminate any chance of a soft bounce.  Give me the scoop because I haven't played any of the these photographed holes.

Ciao

Sean

[Philip Gawith]

Sean - have a look at the write-up on Hidden Creek and notice the Redan on the 4th hole (which Tommy N refers to in the other thread about redans). That is clearly a hole played from an elevated tee.

[ForkaB]

Sean and Philip

We've discussed several times before how what GCA's call a "Redan" these days has nothing to do with the original use of the term re: the 15th at North Berwick.  There it meant (and still means) a fortress with tooth-shaped ("re-dan" = like teeth (dentis)) angles towards the enemy (i.e. the golfer).  Few fortresses are built on low ground (for obvious reasons) and neither is the original.  One cannot see any part of the green from the tee on NB#15, and quite frankly the ideal approach is NOT the slinging hook from the right but as high and crisp a shot as you can hit, to land softly mid-right and then trickle down to the hole.  The ones in the US I have played (e.g.NGLA and Shinnnecock), do have some visibility, and at least the former does allow for the indirect approach (although I still think the high fade is better, if you can pull it off).

At some point, somebody changed the meaning of "redan" (in GCA terms) to mean a medium par-3 which slopes front right to back left and with some deep front left bunkering.  Maybe it was Macdonald because he either didn't have the proper and or didn't want to build a true fortress?

[Sean_A]

Rich

Me thinks you are exaggerating slightly when you state "GCA's call a Redan these days has nothing to do with the original use of the term".  None the less, I tend to agree with you.  I also think the ideal shot is high to the middle of the green, then trickling over the hill.  Except of course on the rarish occassion when the hole is downwind.  Then, for all the folks out there not called Tiger, it is very fine to have the option to kick the ball over the hill.  

I would have thought that the basic principles of a Redan are:

Right to left tilt of green and approach landing area
Green angled to the left, encouraging the left to right tilt
Heavy penalty left and right, but up and down still possible
Uphill

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

Rich

Me thinks you are exaggerating slightly when you state "GCA's call a Redan these days has nothing to do with the original use of the term".  

Sean

I'm just saying Macdonald's "Redan" hole does not have a redan structure, just as his "Road" hole doesn't have a road, and his "Eden" hole no Eden.  That old guy was a cheeky little b*****d, wasn't he?