Best New for '05 ?

[Joel_Stewart]

I have some questions for any raters or those in the know: Conditioning is not supposed to be a huge factor, but it appears to me that it becomes a huge factor.  What % of the overall grade relates to conditioning?  Is there a line item for facilities, unfinished areas outside of the play areas, or surrounding homesites?
Thanks Golf Digest for putting together the most compehensive research mechansim to find the best courses we have so far...    

Conditioning is just 1 of 8 catagories used by Golf Digest.  They are considering giving it only 50% value in the future but no decision has yet been made.

There is no grading for anything outside the lines of play, except for aesthetics.

[Thomas_Brown]

I've played only the front nine at Hualalai G.C. (Weiskopf Cse.) , it's unlikely the back could compensate that much to make any list.

[Eric_Dorsey]

3. Colleton River Plantation Club (Nicklaus Cse.)
Bluffton, S.C.
7,056 yards, par 72.*
Jack Nicklaus.
Initiation fee included with purchase of property.
colletonriver.com



is this the course that was featured on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf with Els and Duval?  designed by Donald Steele I think?  from TV, it looked like a very fine and challenging course.  

anyone know?   If so, what was wrong and what did they do?

[ForkaB]

Eric

You are thinking of Cherokee Plantation.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel S:

Interesting comment you made on your last post / re: conditioning. The issue I see in terms of what courses receive recognition by Digest raters is that too often the "eye-appeal" factor seems to weigh more on their minds than the "internal" shot elements that lie at the heart of a given hole and how they tie together to a series of holes and so forth and so on.

Too many high place finishers for Best New are often those with the "eye appeal" factor being of central consequence to those raters who seem enamored with this as a first among equals criteria. I can't think of any better reason to explain the continued fascination with the TF design approach and its constant validation by Digest raters.

I guess I look at golf courses a bit differently because the core elements for me are how the design ties itself to the actual playing of particular shots throughout the round and how such shots are tied together by holes which constantly change the nature of the total challenge encountered.

In simple terms -- I think Digest raters are moving ever closer with each passing year to giving due to designs that may look great but have little, if any, real depth / core tied directly to the game itself.

Clearly, the possibility that Digest is thinking in going with less emphasis on conditioning is geared towards moving away from saluting courses because they "look" great but have little beef behind them.

[Matt Vandelac]

I question the conditioning factor as it relates to the formula because I have a course that was visited by GD raters this past summer.  We have many exposed sandy wasty areas  that because of this season's drought, weren't at their best (and won't fully mature for a couple years from now).  We purposely didn't feed and water these and the native grass areas (to try and avoid getting them too thick) and until they are burned for a couple years really won't look their best right away.  Can we expect a rater to share this vision?  Also, the turfgrasses we chose are slow to mature; and again won't look their best for maybe a couple more years (we have velvet greens and colonial/fescue fairways).  We could pour the fertilizer to it, but rushing things could backfire in the long term.  I think that the raters looking at "new" developments should be able to discern what we're up to, and evaluate the golf course for it's core value:  What's going to stand the test of time.  We did make the list by the way and we are very honored to get in.  I promise to post pictures and more text as soon as I figure out how.  If someone could refer me to the 'how to post pictures' post, I'd appreciate it.

[Jim Thompson]

Matt,

Try this link-

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBBHelp/posting.html

Then add it to your favorites for quick reference.

Cheers!

JT

[A.G._Crockett]

For whatever else might (or might not) be wrong with the rankings, I'll tell you one that they absolutely got right:  Arrowhead Pt. in Georgia on the Affordable List.  It is absolutely wonderful, and would be at three times the price.  If you get anywhere near it, make the effort to play it.  

[John Kirk]

Random thought time:

1.  Congratulations to Jeff Brauer.  I admire the pictures of The Quarry at Giants Ridge, and now with this fine award for The Wilderness, perhaps it's time to make a Minnesota trip.  Larry Keltto lives up there; I'll drag him along with me.

2.  I'm with Mike Sweeney.  Based on the photos, I don't understand why the Alotian Club deserves this prestigious award.  It looks awfully hilly for walking.  And while I appreciate carving a parkland course out of a pristine mature forest, I do not find this course aesthetically pleasing.  Sage Valley looks very similar to me, but better.

The guys at Golf Digest must have different criteria for course evaluation.  Maybe I'm strongly influenced by what I read and talk about here on GCA.com.  No, it's not that.  It's common sense about what looks good and works well.

Stone Eagle is way more beautiful, and loads of fun to play.




 

[Jason Blasberg]

  Maybe it's just my bleary eyed Saturday morning perception, but the second picture of the Alotian Club that Mike Sweeney posted (with the seemingly downhill curving cart path) looks like it's modeled after Lombard Street in San Francisco.  

Having just seen these pictures for the first time I immediately thought of the recent car commercial where they freeze Lombard Street and the car is zipping down handling it just fine . . .

From the looks of it they should freeze the entirety of Alotian and use it for skiing . . .

I don't know what some people are thinking sometimes

[John Kavanaugh]

  Maybe it's just my bleary eyed Saturday morning perception, but the second picture of the Alotian Club that Mike Sweeney posted (with the seemingly downhill curving cart path) looks like it's modeled after Lombard Street in San Francisco.  

Having just seen these pictures for the first time I immediately thought of the recent car commercial where they freeze Lombard Street and the car is zipping down handling it just fine . . .

From the looks of it they should freeze the entirety of Alotian and use it for skiing . . .

I don't know what some people are thinking sometimes

Jason,

Who are you insulting here...Fazio, Golf Digest or the owner..who I believe is a member of Augusta.  I recently had business in Little Rock and would have killed to have had a chance to play The Alotian.  I did get to play the course that came in second and am not surprised at all by viewing the pictures that just maybe the Little Rock course edged it out..

note:  Anybody, and I mean anybody who has room for me with them for a round at The Alotian let me know....Little Rock is a fascinating town and all not too far from some great poker in Tunica.   Throw in a detour to Memphis and you have a trip dreams are made of..

[Jason Blasberg]

John:

I'm not trying to insult anyone . . . and while I understand that photos can be misleading and/or not do a course justice . . . it's troubling to me to see Alotian edge out others in its category.  

Call me crazy but I don't think you should need a safety harness and industrial strength golf cart breaks to safely navigate your way down a cart path that criss crosses the line of play several times . . .

Maybe it's just a matter of aesthetic taste . . .

It just looks to me to be a severly sloping mountain course which may be a blast to play but it's hard for me to conceive how it's better than others on that list.  

I question a lot of modern design and what gets appreciated and by whom and for what?  I don't get this one but in all fairness I've not played the course.  



 

[Joel_Stewart]

Clearly, the possibility that Digest is thinking in going with less emphasis on conditioning is geared towards moving away from saluting courses because they "look" great but have little beef behind them.

The main reason GD is thinking about changing is
1) Conditioning changes from month to month and GD is trying to put some stability in when a panelist plays it early in the season and another play it late.
2) Whitten feels that courses with limited play (say Cypress Point with under 20,000 rounds) have a huge advantage over Bethpage which is public and doing 50,000 rounds.

Matt V.
Page 2 or 3 has a thread discussing posting pictures,

[Sean Leary]

Are there any pictures of the Lombard Street hole from the tee?  Being a Fazio course, there is no way that that cart path is visable from the tee shot.

It's difficult to have a real sense of the golf course from pictures only.  Given its locale, there must be some reason it was rated so highly ahead of the competition...

[ForkaB]

I have it on good authority that if this thread doesn't die, and die soon, John "Thread Killer" Kirk is going to post soon.  Gentlemen, please make your final arguments and then leave, if you know what's good for you.....

Thanking you in advance.

[Jason Blasberg]

Mea Culpe!  

It looks from the picture itself that Lombard St. is banked and not visable from the tee, although I still think you need a safety harness

Photos alone shouldn't be indicative of all that much.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Jason,

Have you played Old Sandwich...cause obviously you think Boston GC is better than The Alotian.  Just from the pics mind you..I find Boston GC to be far less interesting and just another predictable modern follow the latest fad layout.   I might be wrong and you may just be in Cirba's camp and think Trump got chumped..Who are you trumpeting here anyway and why..

[Jason Blasberg]

John:

It's good to see you don't have an agenda

I have played several courses in the Best New, and from the photos of the #1, I find it hard to believe that it is better than those I've played.  

I have also cried mea culpe on relying only on photos.  

I am trumpeting nobody or place and I'm commenting on the merits of courses (or perceived merits from photos) . . .

For what it's worth, BGC affected me like only a handful of other courses have, from recent memory those others have been Prairie Dunes, Cuscowilla and Pacific Dunes.

     

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

The issue with places like Cypress Point is the built-in edge it gets simply for being Cypress Point.

The exclusive private places will always have a edge -- slight or sometimes more -- because people cannot access them as they can places like Bethpage Black and Pebble Beach.

My point still stands -- I believe it is fair to say that Digest raters are enamored with the cosmetic outlines a course provides rather than the shotmaking elements that are included. It just shows how the uneducated eye simply gravitates to the make-up elements rather than dig down to the core shotmaking elements that are often not so visibily available on first glance.

I don't doubt for a minute that TF has been most successful with past "Best New" awards because of the "wow" factor that many Digest raters are fond of in voting. I don't see many courses of serious depth winning across the board.

[Jason Blasberg]

Matt:

Irrespective of context, I completely agree that shot making often takes a back seat to wow factors in these matters and that's unfortunate.

Jason  



 

[PThomas]

maybe conditioning should only be counted AGAINST a club, since most courses are in fine shape, I think ....i.e., if the course is MOST OF THE TIME in bad shape somehow than a point or two should be deducted.....this would help de-emphasize the over maintenance which is sometimes practiced, which often includes too much water, which may then make'em play firmer and faster!

[Kirk Gill]

If anything the Alotian pics look to be fairly sedate-looking from an eye-candy standpoint. BGC pics I've seen on this site gave me a lot more to look at. So if the GD raters are more impressed by the visual appeal of a course, then..........

Am I wrong?

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Conditioning can be leveled with a simple test ...

PASS or FAIL

As long as you get grade variations you then get this nuclear arms race with various clubs trying to trump others with sort of added elements of turf quality. I mean some clubs try to impress visitors with special tee markers and the like. How silly.

Raters should be rating the inherent aspects of the design first and foremost. The conditioning issue clearly is a part of that but it should be more towards a "base level" that will satisfy the time spent playing the course rather than an exhaustive "over the top" approach that goes far beyond the playing of the game and is nothing more than showmanship / ego, etc, etc.

Jason:

The "prestige" issue is still an element that captures the fancy of many raters. Too many raters are enthralled with the exlcusive nature of certain clubs and consequently these clubs often get a bump in their overall assessments.

Please realize that I am not suggesting Cypress Point is benefiting unjustly from the solid reputation it provides -- both from the "look" perspective and the inherent shot values it consistently provides.

Unfortunately, raters always crave the things they can't immediately get for themselves. That's why I believe that exclusive clubs gets a built-in "bounce" because of their statu versus that of public clubs which can be more easily accessed.

[PThomas]

Matt:  the pass/fail thing  would be fine with me!

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Unfortunately, too many Digets raters think conditioning is on the same page with shot values. They simply rate what they can easily see and appreciate. I can easily make a case that a good number of the top rated layouts by Digest are more "look" than "substance" type.

Conditioning is a secondary dynamic and would be better served in the overall process when weighed on a PASS / FAIL basis. That would keep its weight in a more proportionate manner.

Design is the core of the issue -- not how many curtains or other such touchy feely elements are incorporated. In my mind, so long as conditioniong does not take away from the architectural elements meant for the layout by the architect then it has succeeded with what it was meant to do.

If anything -- the approach I favor / re: conditioning would likely mean the ascension of a number of courses that are not nearly exclusive or dump a ton of money on the eternal quest in looking sensational but being nothing more than skin deep in terms of sheer playing depth.