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Jim Franklin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2005, 11:26:15 AM »
Brent -

The one thing a lot of panelists do and IMHO all should do is have one course as the guideline for each category. I understand not everyone has seen every course, but I know I was selected to be on the panel because I had already played 8 of their top 10 and nearly 60 of their top 100 so I understood what they (GD) were looking for. I use Oakmont as my benchmark for Resistance to Scoring, I use Cypress Point for Aesthetics, since I have not played AGNC I use Hawk's Ridge for conditioning, I use Pine Valley for Shot Values and Design Variety, and I use Merion for Ambience. Using those courses as my guide, Grand Cypress did not deserve any 9.5s let alone 8.5s. I guess the training aspect should incorporate something like that. Does that make sense or am I way off here?
Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 20
Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2005, 11:30:02 AM »
Jim F:  I think most in the panelist class would agree that you need a free trip to Oakmont, Cypress Point, Augusta, Pine Valley, and Merion to be a good rater.

However, an example of a 9.5 isn't the only benchmark you need.  Probably the most important toward which courses make the top 100 lists and which ones don't is what is the difference between a 6, a 7, and an 8.

Jim Franklin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2005, 11:37:10 AM »
Thanks Tom, but I played those courses before becoming a panelist and on my dime, but I think they are a wonderful place to start. I agree that it is the sixes, sevens,and eights that make a difference in which courses crack the top 100. The process is very subjective.
Mr Hurricane

Brent Hutto

Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2005, 11:47:07 AM »
Jim,

Yes, that's the kind of thing I was thinking of. It's one thing to train them that a 9.5 on conditioning means "really good conditioning" but quite another to be able to point to a particular example and say "that's what we have in mind as a 9.5 conditioned course".

Subjective ratings are a bit of a crapshoot anyway but without having seen examples it's like a crapshoot where some guys have six-sided dice, others have eight-sided ones and still others are playing dominoes.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 20
Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2005, 11:57:51 AM »
Brent:

It's even more of a crapshoot if the numbers are written out in Greek and Arabic and you don't understand those languages!

ForkaB

Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2005, 12:11:41 PM »
Hmmmm.......

I'm trying to get my brain around the concept of an 8-sided die, but somehow I think it is geometrically and/or practically impossible.  Any help from the rocket scientists out there?

Oh, yeah, to the topic at hand.  As someone said before recently (I can't remember if it was in the same context or even on this forum or even in this sentence structure, but you get the idea.....):

"One should never take the making of sausages, politics or golf course ranking too seriously."

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2005, 12:36:53 PM »
Brent, as much as your post #19 made Mike's head hurt, I don't feel too sorry for him, because he lives in the land where they make elixer's that help you deal with those sort of brain strains.  I rathe liked you comments.

Then I thought for a moment that perhaps the answer is to assign raters to only evaluate the area of expertise that they know as a well educated individual in a singular field.  Thus, only turf maintenance specialists would rate only on conditioning, and well accomplished players would look at shot values, shapers/operators would evaluate construction techniques, and interior designers and building archies would look at clubhouse aesthetics, and ambiance would be Martha Stewart's role.  

But, then I though, Supers evaluating supers wouldn't fly because even they have vastly different standards, like Scott Anderson VS (someone who is the ultimate on green and lush over fert and irrigated).  They'd still be measuring two different criteria, healthy VS pretty.  Then players would be seeing the course if only playing once, and what season, what wind condition, what game would that player have that day?   And, Martha Stewart can't spread herself that thin to evaluate all that ambiance.  The rating system is flawed if numerical values are assigned on one time evaluation by people with vastly diverse understandings of what quality entails in any field.  Make them write extensively and describe what they are evaluating, why and put them in some sort of category where there is no #1 etc. And, forget putting them in a strictly hierarchial list of 1 to a 100.

Real golfers would then stand to gain the most by reading commentaries from categories.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2005, 12:42:36 PM »
Jim F:

People who serve as raters have had to really travel and play a wide cross section of courses to be effective. Unfortunately, the Digest approach is to simply add more panelists in the erroneous idea that more panelists provide better coverage.

That is not true.

I salute your efforts in getting to play the range of courses yo have played but far too many panelists are regional in scope and generally demonstrate a parochial interest when golf courses are evaluated.

The issue is a simple one -- you don't need more panelists but you do need people who have the wherewithal to play in all corners of the nation. Unfortunately, when I say that those panelists who are primarily regional in scope always take umbrage at such a thought because their self interest in staying in such a role becomes a distinct possibility.

Without meaningful cross comparisons between courses from all over the nation it becomes really difficult to provide the kind of worthy assessments.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2005, 12:47:13 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Golf gods give the strength to resist... please believe I am trying... but the strain is too great... one comment only, please?

Unfortunately, when I say that those panelists who are primarily regional in scope always take umbrage at such a thought because their self interest in staying in such a role becomes a distinct possibility.

Interesting how when I question the wisdom of a Super Rater taking over these duties, the one man any of us know who truly could do this takes umbrage with a capital U....

Didn't someone once say something about a pot and a kettle?

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 12:48:43 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Matt_Ward

Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2005, 12:49:36 PM »
C'mon Huck -- fire away and give in to temptation !!! :o

Tom Huckaby

Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2005, 12:51:54 PM »
Matt:

That was all that truly needed to be said.  Rest assured you and I have beaten the other issues to a death not wished upon the worst of capital criminals.

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 12:53:37 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Jim Franklin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Who stands to gain the most from a GD Panelist summit?
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2005, 12:59:57 PM »
Matt -

I would hope that when someone completes the panelist application and it asks how states have you played in and what courses have you already played that the folks at GD put those apps as a priority. I agree that if they find a couple a people in a faraway town that do not travel and have not experienced a lot of variety, then the ratings will get skewed. I certainly don't think this is a job for one person and I do think getting a wide cross section of opinions will lead us to a pretty conclusion and at least one that sells magazines and starts people talking.
Mr Hurricane