Is the penalty ever too severe?

[Craig_Rokke]

At most of the really good courses I've played, the mantra "stay below the hole" often is very good advise.
The last two I've played, Merion and Torresdale Frankford, both have at least a couple holes, where a missed downhill putt has the potential to detrimental to one's score, if not very costly.

A typical scenario could be this: you are on in regulation, albeit 10' above the cup. Your gentle birdie effort not only misses by a couple inches, but keeps rolling, until it comes to rest 20 minutes later, some 30 yards away in the fairway. Now, if you are lucky, you might get back in two for a bogey. Worse yet, if you are me anyway, you might have
a propensity to double bogey the hole.

I think these types of greens, and the appoach shots/putts
that they demand, can create a lot of drama in golf. They
are also an excellent test of a golfer's execution, as well as his mettle. On the other hand, they can drive you nuts.

What are some of the most penal sloped greens you know of,
and are any, in your opinion, a little too over-the-top?

[Ian Andrew]

The only time I played Crystal Downs, I hit the 11th, but was long. I had a 10 foot downhill putt, that "when" mised would be in the bowl below the green (a tough shot!) I putted the ball 90 degrees right and used the slope of the (backside)bunker to leave the ball on the bottom tier. Instead I had a 10 footer for par straight up the slope.

Sometimes you have to accept the situation and take an unusual approach to try save par. the problem is most people try to make the putt and then gripe at the outcome.

But yes, there are a few greens that are simply impossible. On some of those it is more appropriate to play short of the green, than to hit a shot on. But that's hard to make yourself do that....isn't it ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

If that could happen on several greens, yes. If it happens once in a while, and you have to figure it out as part of managing your round, no.

We sometimes debate whether excessive use of water or OB is good.  Ditto with unescapalbe sand hazards, deep woods or native roughs.  We generally conclude (or at least I do) that it is better to allow recovery a potential recovery with no  lost shots (depending on recovery skill and execution) than enforce a minimum two shot penalty.  I guess greens shouldn't be any different.

The title reminds me of an old movie (although not its title) where they are executing a woman's husband while the bank president explains that "There was clearly a substantial penalty for early withdrawal on the CD you took out."  Yes, sometimes penalties can be taken to the extreme, but you have to find the humor in it when it happens to you!

[Lou_Duran]

Yes, humor is an important personal trait needed when putting on some Brauer greens.  One would think that the architect is another Ben Crenshaw (he is not).  I can vouch that Jeff has a well developed sense of humor, though perhaps a bit sardonic for some.

I don't like the OB and lost ball rules.  Too severe and time consuming.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

If I can't putt like Crenshaw, I design courses so not even Crenshaw can putt like Crenshaw.  Better yet, where Crenshaw putts lilke Brauer!

I am getting better, BTW, after watching Andrews strokes numerous times, I think I am finally striking it firmer, rather than deaccelerating a bit.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

As a middle-to-high handicapper, I don't object to wicked pin positions etc.  OK, I can't hope to do better than bogey,but bogey, plus a few pars equals my handicap.  I can safely aim for the middle of the green (I may well fail to reach it, but that's why I have a pathetic handicap) and even when a pin is put in a really serious championship position I have a hope.  

I played Winged Foot with Neil Regan earlier this year.  My tee to green play was abysmal, but once I got on the greens I had a chance even when he placed a target on the most outrageous positions.  Fair enough, they will Stimp 100% faster at next year's US Open.  I also played Alwoodley with the Professional earlier this year.  He was under no pressure - just demonstrating all the options on each hole (how lucky is that for me?).  But he put tee pegs in certain positions which he could not putt to, no matter where his ball came to rest on the green.  Yet these are straight-forward greens.  Were they simply too fast?  In England?  Not a chance!

[tonyt]

This is sporty. It is a penalty and it is harsh in some instances, but only if the victim gets sucked into trying to achieve what they shouldn't, or hit a ball where they shouldn't have, and will know for future reference.

And unlike OOB or a lake, the ball is retained and the golfer can continue.

[Dan King]

I'll always remember one of the greatest putts I ever made that didn't go in.

I was playing Pasatiempo on the old King Tour with three golfers who had never seen the course before. We come to the par-3 eighth hole and the pin was near the front of the green. I told my three playing companions, no matter what you do, don't hit it past the hole. It can be terribly slippery from up there, with almost no chance for a two putt.

They all followed my directions and then I hit my iron much further than I ever did, putting it almost all the way to the back of the green. My first putt, I barely breathed on it, and it rolled for what seemed like 15 minutes, broke 30 different directions and finished within two feet of the hole. They're was lots of talk about me screwing with their heads, knowing the place to be was in the back of the green.

Just because par is determined with two-putts doesn't mean they should always be guaranteed.

Dan King

When a putter is waiting his turn to hole out a putt of one or two feet in length, on which the match hangs at the last hole, it is of vital importance that he think of nothing. At this supreme moment he ought to fill his mind with vacancy. He must not even allow himself the consolation of religion.
  --Sir Walter Simpson  (The Art of Golf)

[Bill Gayne]

Craig,

The 17th at Valderrama comes to mind as a hole with a severe green and if it's not exactly perfect the ball often rolls in the water.

[Lou_Duran]

Did someone here delete my response to Jeff Brauer?

Just trying to make sure I am not loosing my mind.

[ed_getka]

Crystal Downs #10 with a left pin comes to mind. I have seen more than a few putts roll off the front right of the green down towards the bunker. Close to over the top but not impossible. Knowing how difficult that putt can be really puts pressure on you out in the fairway since you know the penalty for missing your approach shot.
    Come to think of it, most of my favorite courses could give you a serious headache if you were putting your ball on the wrong side of the hole on  a consistent basis.
    Valderrama #17 is a poster child for over the top. If the greatest golfers in the world have a hard time coping with that green, then mere mortals have no chance.