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John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2005, 09:26:19 AM »
I don't think it is too much to ask for him to take a chance here and there and advance his craft even further.  

John,

Will you be writing the check as the developer when Doak takes this chance?

I give Doak a hell of alot more credit than most of you must...From my own observation I would say he is his own man and not just some money and/or attention whore.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2005, 09:30:56 AM »
J,

That was not the point. The question is directed at you as a potential developer, not Tom as the architect. Tom is well documented as to taking some equity in lieu of cash on Barnboogle. The question is what developer wants to write a $750,000+ design fee to Tom and allow him to take a chance that could flop?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 09:31:23 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Mike Hendren

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2005, 09:33:37 AM »
The question is what developer wants to write a $750,000+ design fee to Tom and allow him to take a chance that could flop?

I thought that's why they hire Fazio?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2005, 09:39:18 AM »
I am surprised this thread is a shock to anyone.  Think about other designer's courses for moment besides Doak's.  Why do you feel like you are at Bay Hill in Orlando when you are playing the first course at The K-Club in Ireland?  Isn’t there a reason some of the holes at The Quarry at La Quinta look like those at Shadow Creek.  How many Pete Dye courses have a 5 – 3 – 4 finish?  Why is it that golfers playing in The Flynn Cup all seem comfortable on the greens no matter which venue is hosting the tournament?

Forrest and I interviewed several dozen architects for our book on hazards and everyone of them talked about design preferences.  Why is it surprising that they show up in similar ways on their various golf courses.  Again, most golfers don't see that many and they will never know or notice (or care)  ;)  
Mark
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 09:40:16 AM by Mark_Fine »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2005, 09:40:12 AM »
The question is what developer wants to write a $750,000+ design fee to Tom and allow him to take a chance that could flop?

I thought that's why they hire Fazio?

Mike

Fazio is more expensive, and he has a track record of selling real estate. I believe that Doak is doing some of his first real housing courses now in Oregon and Palm Springs. Jaka's premise, which I disagree with, is that Tom is becoming more formula driven in his approach. Right now it is bad timing for the housing market, so it will be interesting to see if Tom can compete in the future in that market.

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 2
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2005, 09:42:16 AM »
Usually it's not the financer but the artist who ultimately puts himself on the line in pursuit of his craft. Look at what Mel Gibson did with The Passion, risking his own money/reputation to create the movie that he wanted. Seems to me the same was true to a lesser extent with James Cameron when the Titanic went grossly over budget—Cameron put his own money on the line rather than produce what he though would be a lesser movie.

Perhaps TD is already building the courses that meet his own artistic vision, in which case breaking out of the so called "mold" and venturing into risky waters—i.e., financing his own project—is unneccessary.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2005, 09:54:28 AM »
I am surprised this thread is a shock to anyone.  Think about other designer's courses for moment besides Doak's.  Why do you feel like you are at Bay Hill in Orlando when you are playing the first course at The K-Club in Ireland?  Isn’t there a reason some of the holes at The Quarry at La Quinta look like those at Shadow Creek.  How many Pete Dye courses have a 5 – 3 – 4 finish?  Why is it that golfers playing in The Flynn Cup all seem comfortable on the greens no matter which venue is hosting the tournament?

Forrest and I interviewed several dozen architects for our book on hazards and everyone of them talked about design preferences.  Why is it surprising that they show up in similar ways on their various golf courses.  Again, most golfers don't see that many and they will never know or notice (or care)  ;)  
Mark


Mark,

I'm surprised that so many posters on this board accept the branding of every architect as just fine.  For years I read how disgraceful it was that Fazio and Rees never did anything new and now I hear that it's the developers fault that Doak and C&C follow a proven and accepted formula.  I will give due credit to redanman for being the first to call out C&C for their similar designs..but really why even argue the merits of one course over another if it is all just another trip down fast food boulevard.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 09:58:22 AM by John Kavanaugh »

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2005, 10:02:01 AM »
I am surprised this thread is a shock to anyone.  Think about other designer's courses for moment besides Doak's.  Why do you feel like you are at Bay Hill in Orlando when you are playing the first course at The K-Club in Ireland?  Isn’t there a reason some of the holes at The Quarry at La Quinta look like those at Shadow Creek.  How many Pete Dye courses have a 5 – 3 – 4 finish?  Why is it that golfers playing in The Flynn Cup all seem comfortable on the greens no matter which venue is hosting the tournament?

Forrest and I interviewed several dozen architects for our book on hazards and everyone of them talked about design preferences.  Why is it surprising that they show up in similar ways on their various golf courses.  Again, most golfers don't see that many and they will never know or notice (or care)  ;)  
Mark


Mark,

I'm surprised that so many posters on this board accept the branding of every architect as just fine.  For years I read how disgraceful it was that Fazio and Rees never did anything new and now I hear that it's the developers fault that Doak and C&C follow a proven and accepted formula.  I will give due credit to redanman for being the first to call out C&C for their similar designs..but really why even argue the merits of one course over another if it is all just another trip down fast food boulevard.

The answer hangs on whether the formula is good or bad! ;D
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

wsmorrison

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2005, 10:03:02 AM »
John,

Please give specific examples that demonstrate a visual template by Doak.  It is easier said than demonstrated.  I would encourage you to then go beyond the superficial and address how the strategies are templates or varieties.  What Doak courses have you seen besides the two you mention that indicate some sort of systematic approach?  

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2005, 10:03:15 AM »
John,
It is the "quality" of the branding that matters  ;)  I'll leave it at that as I have to run!  Have fun with this thread.
Mark

Larry_Keltto

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2005, 10:04:26 AM »
Yeah, I'm tired of formulas, too.

I'd like to see a great 14-hole course, with some par 2s and par 6s, maybe a par 8 for variety.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2005, 10:15:25 AM »
Yeah, I'm tired of formulas, too.

I'd like to see a great 14-hole course, with some par 2s and par 6s, maybe a par 8 for variety.

That might explain why the Sheep Ranch is so desirable...give one to Doak for that.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2005, 10:18:35 AM »
Well this is a truly momentous day in the annals of golfclubatlas.com... the same day as our FatBaldyDrummer (Martin Bonnar) gets to live his dream at Cypress Point, we see the return of prodigal son John Kavanaugh - and with a damn provocative Topic, also.

We missed ya man - welcome back.

11/29/05 -a day that will live in GCA history.

As for this topic, put those pictures back up you had a few minutes ago, John - I'm damn curious what holes you used as examples.

BTW, I'm with Larry also - I want to see a par 2 and more par 6s and I'm being serious.  Forrest Richardson apparently has a par 2 at an exec course and I can't wait to see it... He also had a 375 yard par FIVE planned (yes, it was going to require three shots, around a mountain) but that project died.  I love this out of the box thinking.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2005, 10:22:36 AM »
Tom,

Go to http://gallery.ballyneal.com/ and you wil find pictures that look exactly like the ones on Tommys Eagle has landed thread.   I just started using an Apple and I can't quite figure what must be so simple to do..

Tom Huckaby

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2005, 10:26:17 AM »
JK:  gotcha.

So the comparison is Stone Eagle to Ballyneal.  One can see similarities in the "visual template" without a doubt.

TH

ps - I can't figure out how to post the exact pics into this thread either.  Hopefully someone more technical will.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2005, 10:43:57 AM »
WB Barn.

The only vsual template I see is a devotion to a naturalness.  A blending of the sports canvas with the native surrounds. Even The Rawls Course mimics the look of terrain found near Lubbock, just not central Lubock.

Juxtapose to more prolific archies, who's visual template seems to have little regard for nature.

Is the look, that other archies use, what you're asking if Doak will produce someday?





 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 10:46:01 AM by Adam Clayman »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2005, 10:53:10 AM »

The only vsual template I see is a devotion to a naturalness.  A blending of the sports canvas with the native surrounds.

 

Exactly...that is what makes it such a great look.  As random as nature is isn't it a bit strange that it could all look so much the same.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 10:53:38 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Robert Thompson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2005, 10:53:51 AM »
Well this is a truly momentous day in the annals of golfclubatlas.com...

Indeed.
All I will say is "ugh." And I'm not the only one. Give it a week and John will be insulting the memory of Mike Stranz, as well as offering the typical nasty personal comments that he loved to post on the last go round. This topic seems sharp enough, but it will surely deteriorate from here into the normal so-called "controversial" posts that he usually sends out dozens of times a day.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2005, 10:58:17 AM »
Glad to have you back on the site John, I to have missed your provocative posts....as for the question in hand..I view it more as a style than a template...and it is s style that I like very much.
That being said however, I do see your point..and I feel the same way about C&C courses..their style is very definitive and again I like it, but their courses all have a similar syle or look.
Again I do not think this is a bad thing, as all of the courses I have played that are Doak or C&C ,I have enjoyed and I have never thought of them as "samey" unlike my thoughts on Fazio courses.

I think we can expect architects to have a "style"  but it is when their courses appear "samey" that I have a problem...and to this point I do not feel at all that way about Mr Doaks courses

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2005, 10:59:46 AM »
Give it a week and John will be ... offering the typical nasty personal comments that he loved to post on the last go round.

Beating him to the punch, I see.

C'mon, Robert. The proof will be in the posting.

No need to deny a guy a shot at redemption -- assuming that he needs redemption.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

rgkeller

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2005, 11:04:24 AM »
Pretty bunkers.

Lots of pretty bunkers.

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2005, 11:07:45 AM »
I don't see as much of a similarity as some of you seem to suggest between the awesome photos of Dick Durrance at BallyNeal and those few we have seen at Stone Eagle.  I see a more labored and crafted site at Stone Eagle in that the playing area had to be - and is obviously - a highly graded/manufactured effort to make the turfed areas "appear" to be pockets of terrain interludes of naturalistic contouring like one would find natually occuring at a varied topography like BallyNeal.

The contours of fairways and greens surrounds and the greens themselves at BallyNeal (as I understand them) are not merely the prairie sod turned over to reveal what was there, exactly.  There is great skill involved in tearing away the original vegitation that was considerably strewn with deep rooted and knarly yucca plants, leaving a pockmarked ground, then using that ripply-rumpled ground to fill in via grading to contour that works in drainage and very interesting surface action for the ball to create a very exciting game.  Yet, one doesn't sense the hand of man in that process.  It does look like the original prairie - merely turned over.  

Stone Eagle has sharp, abrupt and harsh edges of faiway to hardscrabble transition, and the outlying hazards are deep and ominous.  It can be no other way in such terrain because they have restraints on how much they can turf and irrigate, etc., between the hardscrabble topograpy.  Stone Eagle is a very defined and confined space to play within, and BallyNeal is a vast canvas - nearly endless in beyond the first cut relavancy to the game you are playing.  Bally Neal draws you outward bound, and Stone Eagle reigns you in, it seems to me.  I see more Black Mesa in Stone Eagle than BallyNeal as a visual template.

But, JK the idea that Doak may be franchising a "look" is an interesting and provocative discussion.  I tend to think his new work is site specific, and could change upon the mere request of a client to do something different, or that the land dictates something different.  The fact that his team can transition to another "look" very effectively is proven in their restoration work at places like Valley Club, and a course near me, North Shore.  Urbina and Hepner and those fellows can effectivley work in whatever "look" you want.  I personally would like to see the Royal Melbourne sandbelt look to something that is happening in the Sand Hills, and Dismal River would have been an excellent place to go for that.  The rugged natural edged sand/hazard "look" could become the conventional wisdom and expected look out there, and copying it endlessly could be a mistake.  But, who is going to go outside the box out there to try something differernt?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2005, 11:16:19 AM »
I'd love to see Doak break off to a more geometric design method..

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2005, 11:26:31 AM »
In logic, they say that if you start with a flawed premise, anything follows.

Barnbougle, Cape Kidnappers, and The Rawls Course look nothing alike. They don't look at all like the photos in Ran's profile for Lost Dunes or Riverside, either. Does Quails Crossing look like these courses, John?

If you think these courses look alike, then I question your judgement.

The reason Ballyneal and Stone Eagle look somewhat similar from the limited number of photos posted is that each matches the surrounding terrain, and the terrain is somewhat similar, at least superficially - brownish sandy/rocky mountains.

I'd hate to see Tom do a more geometric design. Yuck. That's not advancing anything.

I don't particularly want to see Mike Miller prove that he can paint soup cans, either.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2005, 11:27:14 AM »
Well, they restored a geometric course at Yeaman's Hall... squared greens, bunkers etc.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.