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John Kavanaugh

Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« on: November 29, 2005, 07:57:37 AM »
As great as it looks does it look a bit all to the same.  Except for minor natural variations I have to question if Stone Eagle, Ballyneal, that one in Australia and Cape Kidnappers are all the same course...not that that is a bad thing.  Even the Rawls course fits the mold when anything could have been created from a blank slate.  Is it inevitable that one man is tied so close to one style or can we expect something new anytime soon.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 09:21:58 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Keith Williams

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2005, 07:59:59 AM »
I just wanted to be the first to reply to this semi-groundbreaking post!

In terms of the topic at hand, though, I have no idea  :)


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2005, 08:00:47 AM »
John,

I think design is a double edged sword.

Did Ross have a style ?   AWT ? CBM ? Dr Mac ?

We seemed to like those styles and I don't see any radical departures from them in the body of their work that I've played.

Could the same be said of C & C and Tom Doak ?

And, if they do have a style, and we like it, why would we want them to depart from it ?

James Edwards

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2005, 08:04:57 AM »
John,

Could you also extend the title to Coore and Crenshaw? Strantz? Nicklaus? Palmer? even the older boys from generations past?

Surely its site specific isnt it?
@EDI__ADI

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2005, 08:05:54 AM »
All architects (past and present) have styles and design preferences, call it what you want.  However, how many golfers are really going to get to play enough of any one architects courses to figure that out (and more importantly have a problem with it)?  Not many.  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2005, 08:05:55 AM »
Patrick,

Didn't we establish that we want our architects to grow....through learning or whatever means necessary.

James Edwards

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2005, 08:06:12 AM »
Patrick,

I see you have got in there before me  8)
@EDI__ADI

wsmorrison

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2005, 08:08:23 AM »
Probably the king and prince of templates were Raynor and Banks.  They didn't seem to have a problem getting business.  It is the customer demand that drives a lot of the development.  Often the choice is if it works, go with it and keep going with it.  Hollywood and TV follow such a model all the time.

I do not see the work of Doak as being rigidly consistent in look and playability.  While it is easy to recognize a Coore and Crenshaw design, the ones I've seen have a great variety in how they play.

wsmorrison

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2005, 08:09:24 AM »
"Didn't we establish that we want our architects to grow....through learning or whatever means necessary."

You talk as if we speak with one voice.  That alone is a poor basis for going forward.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2005, 08:09:31 AM »
You can't on one hand call golf course architecture art and on the other accept the franchisement of its artisens..

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2005, 08:10:17 AM »
The relevant question, it seems to me, is not whether a person has a style. Everyone has his own personality or style. And it's not something you can change very easily.

The relevant question is whether we like it.

Bob
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 08:14:57 AM by BCrosby »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2005, 08:16:24 AM »
So it's all fine and dandy if an architect finds a style that fits his eye and the public accepts and he sticks with it.  I guess it will be as easy as going to a McDonalds in a strange town..no surprises...the model of a successful franchise.

Philippe Binette

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2005, 08:19:15 AM »
John,
could you define your terminology, what do you mean by visual template...

Courses likes Barnbougle and Kidnappers look totally different to me...

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2005, 08:19:40 AM »
John,
Actually it is.  If Fazio started building courses that looked like Doak's, he'd be in trouble.  Some of us might not think so, but his clients sure would.  
Mark

ForkaB

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2005, 08:26:19 AM »
Well said John.

Of course, a McDonald's franchise only costs $500K or so, whereas if you want a Doak or C&C or Nicklaus signature course you are talking millions.

I agree that most Doak (and C&C) stuff I see pictures of on this site looks like deja vu all over again (mostly due to their consistently Mannerist bunkering--maybe it's just using the same shapers?), but that's their choice.  After all, Picasso could have out delacroixed Delacroix, if he had wanted to, but he preferred to keep his style and build his franchise.

If it worked for Pablo and Ray Kroc, why shouldn't these guys follow that model?  They're just businessmen, aren't they?

Keith Williams

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2005, 08:30:46 AM »
I think there are a bunch of different angles regarding this topic, some of which have been discussed before.

One aspect is the idea of branding, and expectations that come along with a particular product by a particular author.  Are golfers and clients expecting a particular brand of golf when they note a particular designer?  Are people expecting a particular course and experience when they see Tom Doak's (or Nicklaus, Fazio, etc.) name attached to it?  Are designers succombing to those marketplace expectations with what they produce?

I certainly don't know for sure, but my guess is that Mr. Doak doesn't necessarily feel he is giving in to expectations, but that he is creating a product that in his mind is the best golf course each site has to offer - within those constraints remains the aspect of what Doak feels is the right thing to do with each site (i.e. his style).  Just like the MacD/Raynor/Banks style incorporated template holes, it appear the Doak style is one where the product should appear natural, whether by virtue of the site or by the architect's hand (hope I'm not putting too many words in Tom's mouth) and with that style comes the inevitable similarities whether it be in bones of the course or merely the aesthetics.

I do not have a depth of experience with Tom's courses, but my guess is that the similar aesthetics (which seems to be what is being discussed here) of his courses mask the fact that the holes all probably posess great variety and are rarely repetitive (this probably applies to many architects) i.e. just because many Doak courses have rugged bunkers and a natural looking style doesn't mean that you are going to step on Stone Eagle and say "hey, didn't I see this same hole down at Barnbougle?"

Keith.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 08:31:00 AM by Keith Williams »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2005, 08:31:30 AM »
John,

I don't know if growth and maintaining one's style are mutually exclusive.

Rather, I think growth may be in nuances, or site specific adjustments.

Remember too, that the owner-developer that retains the architect does so because they like their style, and if the architect produced a product radically different from their style, the owner-developer would be getting a product he didn't bargain for.

Brad Klein

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2005, 08:34:04 AM »
John, care to give an example? This is a meta-question that has an agitational affect, but without specifics it's vague and meaningless.

Rawls Course doesn't look anything like anything else I've seen of Doaks - in part because of the huge containment berm that focuses your eye inward. Water hole par-3 10th and par-5 18th are conventional in many ways, yet the long par-4s on far side of property are unlike anything found inland in the south. Bunkers have greater delineation than at Pacific Dunes or Sebonack. Greens have less kick than Lost Dunes.

Philip Gawith

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2005, 08:39:44 AM »
John K - please outline what you consider to be the core elements of this template.


A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2005, 08:40:07 AM »
A lot of the answer to this might depend on the tastes and preferences of the developer, as well as the site, yes?

If a developer had a site and a particular look in mind, then he might be more likely to contact a GCA with a proven track record with that type of site and that type of look.  As Mark Fine says, if the GCA then built something entirely "out of character", those expectations would not be met.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2005, 08:42:30 AM »
Brad,

Two items brought me to this this morning.  The aerial of Stone Eagle feels like that of Cape Kidnappers...and, the picture of the 19th at Stone Eagle feels like Ballyneal.  I'd like to see someone with the talent to post pictures post a few compare and contrast examples....as this is only a comparison of a visual template not the playing fields...which I accept in itself both vague and meaningless
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 09:22:31 AM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2005, 08:47:54 AM »
John K - please outline what you consider to be the core elements of this template.



I would guess, fairway contour, green site location and shape, bunker style, fairway edgelines, hazard locations and yes I'm sorry to say framing of natural features.

Kris Spence

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2005, 08:52:59 AM »
Yes John it is, he is building consistently great golf courses on consistently great sites one after another yet each is unique.  Reading Doaks earlier  comments during the design phase of Stone Eagle reveal a man who is extremely passionate about what he is doing.  What more can you ask for.


John Kavanaugh

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2005, 09:05:24 AM »
Yes John it is, he is building consistently great golf courses on consistently great sites one after another yet each is unique.  Reading Doaks earlier  comments during the design phase of Stone Eagle reveal a man who is extremely passionate about what he is doing.  What more can you ask for.



I agree and am not questioning that he is building consistently great courses...and I also believe that in a few years he will build a few courses out of this mold..As probably our hottest young architect working today I don't think it is too much to ask for him to take a chance here and there and advance his craft even further.  

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Is the Doak visual template becoming too consistent..
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2005, 09:22:04 AM »
I don't think it is too much to ask for him to take a chance here and there and advance his craft even further.  

John,

Will you be writing the check as the developer when Doak takes this chance?