A(nother) sad story about the Lido Golf Course

[George_Bahto]

A(nother) sad story about the Lido Golf Course
Macdonald & Raynor: 4 years: 1914-1917
official opening 1918

(note gb: US involvement in WWI: 1917 thru June 28, 1919)

The following article appeared in American Golfer Sept 1919


   “American prodigality was never so well instanced than in the case of the Lido Golf Links. Here was one of the three greatest courses in America, with such a scanty membership, that on some days not a half dozen would venture over the course, which cost millions of dollars, and in a way, was a triumph of engineering skills.

   This is what Peter Lees, the former greenkeeper said the other day. It almost made me weep when I was called to Lido early this year. Can you imagine my chagrin at having to take a crop of hay off those putting greens and fairway? It was te first time ever in my life that I cut a putting green with a two horse mower. With some help I was able to get the course in fair shape but now it has grown up again and is ready for another cutting.”

   It seems unlikely there will be any great amount of play at Lido until an hotel is built nearby.”



note: The great Lido Club (hotel) was built ten years later in 1928 (and still exists in magnificent splendor as a condominium)




Peter Lees, a profile - from the Lido chapter in The Evangelist of Golf:

     “You cannot grow fine grasses on sterile sand, so huge amounts of topsoil and manure for fertilization would be needed. Macdonald and Raynor were quite well versed in turfgrass culture by now, but this project was different - sand from the bottom of the channel was totally devoid of nutrition.  Though he had learned much at the National about growing turf in sandy soil, Macdonald felt there was one more important person still needed; one who understood course construction to be sure, but more, one who understood and could solve the difficult problems of growing fine turf grasses on seaside links. This was an absolute necessity if there was indeed to be a great golf course.
     Not to anyone's surprise, Macdonald sought out the best in the world; one Peter Lees the Keeper-of-the-Green at the Royal Mid-Surrey Golf Club in England. Lees, who with J. H. (James Henry Taylor, one of British golf's Great Triumvirate, had rebuilt the Royal Mid-Surrey course in 1911.  Taylor was a club professional at several courses in England before settling in as head professional at Royal Mid-Surrey. A great champion was Taylor, winning the Open Championship five times as well as many major Championships. It was he who recommended Peter Lees to Macdonald. Lees was eventually retained by the Lido Country Club as their course superintendent.

     The Brits were outraged!”

Lido Club - 1928:




the “clubhouse” today:





So here we find the great Peter Lees just a year or more after the course opened talking about hay-fields on the Lido greens and fairway,

again from the Evangelist of Golf, the final paragraphs about the Lido course and club:

     “It was to be a slow and painful death for both the club and magnificent golf course. The enormous cost of maintaining the huge building dragged the club to near rock-bottom, forcing a sale of the property. Lido finally fell into the hands of real estate developers with little interest in golf - from there, the slide was inevitable.  Waterfront property was ruthlessly sold off for housing without regard for the integrity of the course. Lido Boulevard once a narrow, little used road close to the beach, became a major thoroughfare.  The tees of many holes were moved, shortening the course and leaving the once mighty Lido a shadow of its former glory.
     The course and club were a shambles:
     Lido would eventually reach its demise during World War II. The United States Government deemed Long Beach Island a strategic defense site and the U. S. Navy took over the entire area in 1942, closing down the Lido facility. To this day a portion of the original ocean-side holes is retained by the Navy.
     In 1949, a newly designed Lido course re-emerged at Long Beach on a new site. This R. T. Jones, new Lido continues to operate as a municipal course by the Township of Hempstead.  Though a fine layout, it bears little resemblance to the original Macdonald/Raynor classic of the 1920's - falling pitifully short of the original.”

gb

[wsmorrison]

What convinced Macdonald that Peter Lees had the special knowledge to grow turf on sand?  Was anything like that being done in the UK?  

It seems to me in hindsight that all Macdonald had to do was see the work and solutions decided upon to a similar situation at Pine Valley that was resolved to complete satisfaction in 1919.

[George_Bahto]

Wayne, as far as I can tell he chose Lees because of his reputation ion the Brit Isles. There was considerable information on Lees in the older Brit Golf Ill before CB plucked him.

[Tom_Doak]

Wayne M:  Lido was struggling with the grass before 1919, I think.

George B:  Ultimately, wasn't that massive hotel / clubhouse was dragged down the club financially in the thirties?  Would not the golf course have survived without it?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Uncle George, You forgot to mention the couple of floods, especially the big one in 38' which flooded the entire course, which  claimed the ocean front Biarritz.

Then a certain mobster who made lots of money of the eventual destruction and redevelopment of the course.

[George_Bahto]

Yes, they had trouble with the grass at Lido from the git-go. Macdonald figured out what to do out at NGLA with the sand base (after a failure or two) but at Lido much of the sand-base came from underwater, totally inert.

They finally spliced sections of bog material all over the course before adding the organic materials.

This is one of the reasons he "imported" Peter Lees - Raynor "engineered" and Lees "grassed."

Tom: you asked: "George B:  Ultimately, wasn't that massive hotel / clubhouse was dragged down the club financially in the thirties?  Would not the golf course have survived without it? "

I think the course would have eventually survived on its own merits but yes, the hotel, that was supposed to bring in the international membership, was a major part of the overall demise.

WWI was the real problem. The investors (Astor, Vanderbilt, J P Morgan, Otto Kahn, Whitney and the rest) totally turned their attention to supporting the war effort and their interest never fully returned to the Lido venture.

Lido was a victim of unfortunate timing.

The project began as the war broke out in Europe.

The Lido project was complete about the time the US entered the war.

What really shocked me was that the place was a hay-field (for a while) in about 2 years.

Lees got it all going again after a time and it was a great course for quite a while - till they sold off the the ocean side of the course and ruined number of holes.

Overall, though, Mr. Macdonald was disappointed the course did not even/ever come out the way he envisioned it. He blamed the construction company for a lot of it but I think the cost factor just drove it to point where they could not do it the way he planned (envisioned).

[RJ_Daley]

George, besides WWI and its aftermath (a large part of the male population traumatized, shell shocked, gassed, etc.) have you noted a widespread malaise evidenced by a general golf world decline in the years ~1918-22?  I'm thinking in terms of the great influenza of those years.  Did your studies ever come across specific references to the influenza, and possible effects on enthusiam for the game and its expansion waning during those years?  Trying to stay on top of this bird thing, you know...

[Gib_Papazian]

Uncle George,

Every now and again, I get reminded at what a privilege it was.  

[Marc Haring]

I’m only guessing but ‘sand from the bottom of the channel was totally devoid of nutrition’?

That sounds to me like it could have been very fine sand or to be more accurate, silt.

Silt has no benefit to a soil whatsoever. It is too fine to allow air spaces between the particles and too coarse to allow for flocculation of the particles into small agglomerates as a clay soil would do. You just end up with one great amorphous mass, totally devoid of air and therefore any soil life in the form of microorganisms. Basically it would become very difficult to grow grass upon and impossible to drain effectively.

It seems like they might have tried to rectify the situation by bringing in vast quantities organic material and attempted to grow grass on a nutrient rich soil above the inert bog below. Again I’m only surmising but it sounds as though they would end up with excessive growth through the summer and then flooding and total die back in the winter.

Sounds like a total cock-up from start to finish on the greenkeeping front.

[ForkaB]

Marc

Sounds to me like a total cockup from the design front.

GB/GP

Was it just another pretty course that was unmaintainable?

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

  It would be interesting to do some core testing of the soils at the Lido site and see what the physical characterestics are. Is this even possible today?

[RJ_Daley]

I'm sure the local utility workers that periodically put in sewer and gas lines, etc., would know what the underlayers are like.  I guess it is mostly homes and a school there now.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I always wondered if salts were a problem in bringing the soil in by slurry from beneath the ocean.......

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

I don't know for sure but I would've thought they were trying to grow turf on mostly sand and it just couldn't work over the long haul.  There were also problems at NGLA and Pine Valley as well till they finally figured it out at PVGC in 1919.  

Growing turf on the man-made island at Indian Creek was never a problem where fill was obtained from dredging the salt-water bottom of Biscayne Bay.  The man-made island was raised from a level four feet to as high as 35 feet in spots.  Now there could be quite different soils.  I don't pretend to know all the variables involved.  I just think it important to know that there was an awful lot of on the job training and a lot of mistakes were made back then.  They were learning on the fly.  

Maybe Flynn learned the lessons from Pine Valley when he built the Indian Creek course in 1930.  Pine Valley couldn't maintain turf on the predominantly sandy soil.  They had to amend the soil with vegetable matter and clay.  According to the Wilson-Piper/Oakley papers the vegetable matter (manure and composte) is necessary to produce the required fertility and water-holding capacity.  The clay was used to increase water-holding capacity and act as a binder and as a foundation upon which to grow the turf.  Pine Valley had to basically top-dress everytwhere on the golf course.  

[George_Bahto]

salt, silt, mix of sand with silt .......  loss of interest .... the slurry mix coming out of the pumps (and the pumps were bought from the Panama Canal project) - the slurry that was pumped was 85% water / rest was bottom silt ......  a huge messy mud pie.

I have a lot of construction pics that have not been published yet. This was one very complex project .... and they were learning along the way, so it must have been very exciting for all concerned.

Rich D: I'm sure influenza was a part but to me it would have been a small part ...... we had tons of guys coming home - not enuf jobs for them, a depressed economy, hence the loss of interest in this type project.

Gibber, thanks for the kind words, bud.

[Eric_Dorsey]

I plan on bringing the Lido back to life for Microsoft's Links.  It will be great to play the course that we all dream of playing I think.  

It will be a combination release along with the NGLA.

I just need some type of a topo map.  I have George's book, so i think I have an aerial.  any help here will be greatly appreciated.  I know there are many people waiting for this, which won't be finished until next year some time.

[T_MacWood]

Timber Point and Sea Island were built using the same dredging method...as far as I know neither course had any problems. Based on George's research it looks like Lido died from neglect and poor management, not cronic maintenance problems.

[RJ_Daley]

Didn't Raynor himself use the same dredging techniques to do CC of Charleston.  Of course, the dredged up material may have had entirely different characteristics.