Huntsville Golf Club, Wilkes-Barre, PA

[Joel_Stewart]

I mentioned that Pete Dye thought the University of Purdue golf course was his most underrated golf course.

At the Golf Digest summit, Rees Jones talked about Huntsville Golf Club being one of his most underrated.  Has anyone played it?

[TEPaul]

Joel:

Sure, a lot, and in a few state tournaments too. It's a very good golf course and it was discussed a lot on here some years ago. It has quite a few very fine holes and a couple or really odd ones you can read about if those Huntsvillle threads years ago can be pulled to the front page.

I can see Rees mentioning Huntsville as one of his underrated ones but ironically it wasn't exactly underrated on this website, other than those few odd holes on it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Rees Jones must be a very greedy person. Huntsville is ranked #5 in PA by GD, having moved up from #8 and is ahead of Huntingdon Valley at #6.

1. (1) Oakmont C.C. *
2. (2) Merion G.C. (East) Ardmore *
3. (4) Laurel Valley G.C. Ligonier *
4. (3) Aronimink G.C. Newtown Square *
5. ( Huntsville G.C. Shavertown *

[wsmorrison]

Rolling Green isn't in the top 25.  That is one wacky list!  No love for Flynn amongst those knuckleheaded rankers.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Huntsville is a solid property that features a so-so layout (some very good and some much less so) that should have been far better.

The opening sequence of holes speaks to Rees overreaching and now allowing the natural property to breathe. In sum -- you see half-cocked mounding that wreaks of the "created & imported" look. Unlike Olde Kinderhook where Rees used much of the existing land to be itself and simply routed holes without the protypical overkill mentality.

On the flip side Huntsville does have a number of unique holes -- the split fairway at the 11th is well done IMHO.

I also liked a few of the holes coming on on the inward half. Is it worth a special trip to play. In conclusion, Huntsville is not a bad course by any means -- however -- the State of Pennsylvania has a very high level of worthy private layouts --a number of which fly below the radar screen and clearly were either missed or ignored by the raters from Digest. If some one were traveling I'd say Huntsville is a course to play but not before entertaining oneself at no less than 10 others that I could mention for the state.

If I had to nominate a course Rees has done that's clearly underrated I would vote for Nantucket, to name one that comes quickly to mind.

Steve:

I have plenty of issues with Digest's Pennsy state ratings. I mean it is nothing less than laughable that Olde Stonewall made the top ten in the Keystone State. That is beyond silly.

Ditto the idea that HV is behind the likes of #3, #4 and #5 in the Digest poll. Laurel Valley gets too many points because of its reclusive nature and that Palmer has a connection to it.

The Weyhill Course at Saucon Valley is a fine layout -- but it too doesn't have enough heft to merit a top ten placement in the top ten IMHO. Candidly, I don't see how any of the Saucon Valley layouts merit anything more than a top 20 placement -- it's great club in terms of its supportive membership and facilities but the architectural elements are just not there -- particularly on the vastly overrated Grace layout. Plenty in Pennsy was clearly missed by Digest and that includes Rolling Green as mentioned by Wayne plus a few others.

[John Gosselin]

Wayne, I believe RG was rated #7 in the state in the late 90s.
Not so long ago!

[Joel_Stewart]

If I had to nominate a course Rees has done that's clearly underrated I would vote for Nantucket, to name one that comes quickly to mind.

He named Nantucket as his other choice.   I'll post Fazio 3 picks in a few days.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Were you at the gathering in Orlando ?

Be very much interested in the Fazio listing. Would be very interested if he included Glenwild in Park City, UT.

[JSlonis]

I've had the chance to play Huntsville on several occasions.  Overall, I enjoyed it, but as Matt and Tom have stated above, it certainly is a mix of some truly great holes, and few others that leave you scratching your head.

The course sits on some very dramatic property with quite a bit of elevation change.  I think some of the dramatic elevation change was used very well on certain holes.

The one hole that I never thought blended well with the rest of the course is #18.  It is a very difficult uphill par 4 that is wedged between a tree covered hillside on the right, and a steep wooded falloff to the left.  Most of the course has big open feel to it, even some of the other tree lined holes, but the 18th hole feels and looks cramped comparitively.

I believe my home club drew Huntsville as one of our opponents next year, so it looks like I'll be playing Huntsville this coming Spring in our annual interclub GAP matches.  Although it can be an overnighter to play given its remote location away from the center of the Philly area, I'll definitely look forward to it.

[Matt_Ward]

J.S. :

One other point on Huntsville -- in the three (3) times I have played it -- all during summer months -- I have always found the course to be especially wet -- particularly when you play the elevated tee shot at #2 -- I've seen balls literally disappear upon hitting the fairway because of soggy conditions.

P.S. For what it's worth -- I have to ask if you have ever played Stone Creek in Tunckhannock Twsp which is fairly close to Huntsville and is just west of Scranton. The uphill 2nd is one of the toughest par-4's in al of public golf in Pennsy. Ditto the qualities of the par-5 11th IMHO. I wonder if a clubhouse has ever been built there.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne, I believe RG was rated #7 in the state in the late 90s.
Not so long ago!"

Hmmm...sort of coincides with your departure, right John?

Of course the conditioning at Rolling Green has been substandard for many years and this had an understandable influence over the years.  Perhaps too great of one.  

The bunker remodeling and even more so the tree issues are certainly negatives on everybody's minds when they consider ranking the course.  Yet the topography, use of topography and design are so superior that the course could easily be a US top 50 classic era course.  

I think it should be somewhat penalized for the shortcomings, let's hope if they are resolved by the new superintendent (today was his first day) that the recognition will come.  I really don't care about the rankings, just the qualitative recognition of Flynn's genius in the state.  If it can be returned to firm and fast through the greens, tree management implemented and the MorrPaul bunker put in on 7 and 18 as a par 4, then I think you'll see a reversal in consideration.

Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster, Lehigh, Philadelphia Country and Manufacturers are, along with RGGC, significantly better in my opinion in many regards than nealry all of what is on that list.  It helps to demonstrate that rankers generally have much higher opinions of their worth than is merited.

John, let me put you on the spot.  What do you think of 18 as a par 5 versus a par 4?

Best of luck to you in your new post, John.  I hope to come by and visit sometime soon.

[JSlonis]

J.S. :

One other point on Huntsville -- in the three (3) times I have played it -- all during summer months -- I have always found the course to be especially wet -- particularly when you play the elevated tee shot at #2 -- I've seen balls literally disappear upon hitting the fairway because of soggy conditions.

P.S. For what it's worth -- I have to ask if you have ever played Stone Creek in Tunckhannock Twsp which is fairly close to Huntsville and is just west of Scranton. The uphill 2nd is one of the toughest par-4's in al of public golf in Pennsy. Ditto the qualities of the par-5 11th IMHO. I wonder if a clubhouse has ever been built there.

Matt,

The last time I played there was in June 2003, so it was some time ago.  I do remember the course being somewhat firm although the 2nd fairway that you mentioned was quite soft.  I would imagine with the way that fairway sits at the base of the steep hill, that even in dry conditions, it is always softer than the others.

I have not played the other course that you mentioned.

**Also, for Huntsville to be rated ahead of HVCC in PA is just another great reason that NO ONE should ever pay much attention to rankings.**

[Mark_Fine]

John,
I played with a Pine Valley member who thought Forrest Creek was a better golf course than Sand Hills    Is the guy clueless, no.  He just has different preferences.  Some guys like "modern-style" designs better than the older ones.  The rankings will always be subjective.

I like Huntsville GC but I don't rave about it.  As has been said many times here already, it has some excellent holes.  However, some are really not very good and that hurts my overall impression.  A 6 on the Doak scale.  7 would be a stretch.  

Regarding Nantucket, I was disappointed with that one but then again my expectations were very high when I played it.  Over sculpted is the best way to describe it.  It should play and look like a links but it doesn't.  Maybe it needs another look but again for now it is in that 6 range for me.  
Mark

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel:

Were you at the gathering in Orlando ?

Be very much interested in the Fazio listing. Would be very interested if he included Glenwild in Park City, UT.

Yes I went to Orlando.  The Golf Digest summit was good, not great.

All 3 of the Fazio courses he felt are underrated are in the Eastern Time Zone.

[SPDB]

Joel -

Did he mention Johns Island?

[Mark_Fine]

Joel,
I was away and could not go.  I wonder if anything was taped?  

My guess is that Galloway National is surely one of the underrated courses Fazio mentioned.
Mark

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel,
I wonder if anything was taped?  

My guess is that Galloway National is surely one of the underrated courses Fazio mentioned.
Mark

Everything was taped although I am not sure how they are going to use it?

Galloway was not mentioned but Johns Island was.   One down, two to go.

[SPDB]

Hartefeld?
Camp Creek?

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

I love when architects throw forward such "spin" on the most underrated of their designs. It's a carefully calculated PR exercise to bolster some movement by those assembled in Orlando. Nothing like getting the herd that was present to make notes on making future visits to such places.

I guess the home sites are not going as fast as can be expected for the three eastern located courses that TF stated.  

The issue for TF is that he does produce -- from time to time -- some truly unique layouts (see Glenwild, Karsten Creek, etc, etc) -- however -- they are often far and in between as the sheer bulk of his efforts are reminscent of the Toll Brothers home design menu -- simply a cut and paste of others that have come before.

Mark:

I don' doubt Nantucket is an "over sculptured" layout but the core shot value ingredients are way beyond what you normally see with a 101 design effort by Rees. The course routing is also well done as it takes you through all corners of the property. I'm not suggesting it's some sort of reincarnated Fisher's Island but it's a good bit better than the lowly six you miserly gave.

[Jim Franklin]

Overlooked Fazio = Pablo Creek

[Joel_Stewart]

Overlooked Fazio = Pablo Creek

Jim was there so yes Pablo Creek and Johns Island are two courses that Fazio mentioned.  The third is really not fair since the editor of Golf Digest asked Fazio about it and Fazio kind of nodded and said yes it was underated.  Easy hint: Its in Maryland.  

[Jimmy Muratt]

Joel,

I guess you're referring to Caves Valley in Maryland.  Interesting if that's the case, I don't know that it's underrated at all, in fact it seems a bit overrated.  I believe in the latest Golf Digest state rankings, Caves came in ahead of BCC Five Farms, which is hard to believe.

[Jim Franklin]

I found Faz's comments about Caves being underrated a joke. I met Mr F at Shadow a while back and we talked about Caves and he said he was not happy with the changes made there and that he was not consulted with at the time. I know the former honcho there has moved for health reasons, but don't know if Faz was contacted for any other changes, but he did not like the course when I first met him. For him to now say it is underrated is nonsense.

[Tom_Doak]

Ironically, considering Matt's comments, I lost out to Rees for the job at Olde Kinderhook because the client could not decide whether he preferred Stonewall and Huntsville, so he went with the more familiar name.

What this thread really causes me to wonder is whether these architects will succeed in getting their "underrated" courses rated more highly because they suggested to the panelists that they should be?  My guess would be yes!

I saw Pablo Creek recently and thought it was OK, but not one of Fazio's best.  (It's a 6.)  Mr. Fazio told me in 1986 that he thought Johns Island West was one of his most underrated courses, and that I would agree with ... I liked it a lot. (7.)  I have never seen Huntsville, but I did give Nantucket a 7 in print in ESQUIRE a couple of years back; some accused me of grade inflation.

[Mark_Fine]

I agree with you Tom.  Fazio might need points with those owners and he could be trying to influence the panelists.  Pablo Creek is a 6.  John's Island I have not played so I can't comment.  I still think your 7 for Nantucket is inflated.  Cave's is barely a 6 at best.  Galloway National is better than all these courses (mosquiteos and all)  
Mark