Detailed Green Contour Drawings?

[Paul_Turner]

Who was the first to start drawing detailed green contours on plans?  And where.

Harry Colt is usually cited as the first to draw up detailed plans of courses.  Which might be true, he certainly was one of the first.  But these didn't include green detail. I think he just worked in the ground with stakes.

We know that designers like Alison, Mackenzie, Flynn, Ross and I'm sure others, were drawing detailed green contours in the 1920s.

There seem to be two ways of detailing contours.  One uses arrows to signify the contours, the other sections off green with labels (such as A,B,C)  and assigns a height relative to a certain zero point.

[TEPaul]

"There seem to be two ways of detailing contours.  One uses arrows to signify the contours, the other sections off green with labels (such as A,B,C)  and assigns a height relative to a certain zero point."

Paul:

I have no idea who the first was to drawing detailed green contours. I agree that the two methods you described above are all I've ever seen from the old days. Flynn used those arrows all over his greens (Wayne and I call them "flow lines"), and Ross and Alision seemed to use the other method you described.

As for Colt, I've only seen maybe two of his drawings, one for a course in Canada and the other PVGC. In his PVGC drawings the greens were pretty amorphous but he did occasionally have something to say about a few of them which was only text, not drawings. He'd say things like "raise green on left" (#2) although that green wasn't where the 2nd green was built or "raise boldly the right hand edge of green"  (#5) or "raise left edge of green" and "ease slope on right edge of green" (#6) or "depress hill at back for occasional hole" (#17) but he never actually got into any green contouring descriptions more detailed or explanatory than that. On the other hand, Alison's green contouring details in 1921 for a few greens at PV were really specific using the A,B,C method.

[George_Bahto]

Paul: I have a nearly complete set of green blueprints (reproduced from an original set) drawn by Charles Banks for the greens for the 2nd course at Westhampton CC.

He has the greens divided into squares - each square representing a 20' area. Each squared has an elevation figure in it, such as 3.25 or whatever.

There are detailed mounds and other features obviously drawn in as well - the adjoining greenside bunkering and the approximate depth of the bunkers for this course.

One of the most interesting ones is the Biarritz green for it shows the horseshoe feature as well as the subtle mounding and ridges that were on this (and most of the other) Biarritz greens.

Most interesting is that the Biarritz green encompasses the so-called “front” green section we are talking about and although it was not to be fully putting surface that area is “included” in his Biarritz green blueprint.

Obviously he “learnt” (hah) this from his mentor Raynor who must have been doing the same thing,

These are the only green-only blueprints I have ever come across or even heard of.

Unfortunately, the set is missing a couple greens of for the course and wouldn’t you know it, the Redan is one of the missing blueprints.

I think the lack of topo-contour lines left it open to on-sight interpretation rather than a highly defined manual drawing and I think this was done in this manner so that all the greens would not be exactly the dame but would have the overall general “sameness.”

Remember, Banks was only with Raynor for a very short time before SR died.

gb

[wsmorrison]

Flynn's green detail drawing styles:

1921  Town and Country Club (MD) number 7 green



1923  Philadelphia Electric Company McCall Field Club number 2 green



1924  Columbia Country Club number 2 green



The final style is one Flynn used for presentations (its on linen the others on paper)  and the one that Tom is most familiar with.  Flynn indicated in his construction instructions how deep the bunkers would be and how high points around the green would be and the maximum slopes into the greens.  He had field drawings showing the stake heights as in the Philadelphia Electric Co course.  These stakes were measured to the fraction of a foot in relation to a zero point.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
How often do you feel he built to exactly what he drew?  A lot did drawings but when they were in the field there were a lot of adjustments made by someone.  
Mark

[Paul_Turner]

Wayne

That's super.  And just about as detailed as you can get before modern inventions like lazers.  An engineer's approach/method.  

From George's post, it sounds like Banks used a similar method to the first image you posted.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

When Flynn's crew was involved, I would say that the holes were built as planned.  On two examples where Flynn's crew was not used, when we overlaid the Flynn drawings on sites such as York (not hole features but landforms and buildings) the features were drawn exactly as on the ground.  An even better example is the Cascades where Homestead employees built the course.  The drawings were exactly as built on every hole.  Craig is helping us to look at other situations.  So far an overwhelming majority of holes were built as drawn.  Unique?  Probably so.  But true in the case of Flynn.  That's really how we were able to do the work for the Cascades long-range restoration and master plan.

Paul,

I thought you'd appreciate the drawings.  They are fascinating drawings.  He was pretty precise with his measurements in the McCall Field drawings, don't you think?

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

I'd imagine that type of precision is paramount to subtle green features. Especially given Flynn's penchant for making a green appear as though he laid a blanket down on the ground for a picnic.

Do you happen to know the distance between the stakes? When we were building the artificial green for our scout camp, I used a similar method for a 2,000 sq. ft. green - with stakes spaced every two feet.

[wsmorrison]

Off-hand I don't know the size of the green.  I'll look it up on the hole drawing later today...gotta go to Princeton in a bit.  As you probably know, the McCall greens are some of the smallest greens you'll see anywhere.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

I've never actually played it, just drove past it on the way to Cobb's. What I did see looked extremely small though.

Good luck in Princeton.

[TEPaul]

What I'd really like to know is if and when Perry Maxwell used green drawings or written green contour dimensions. While standing on the left 9th green at PVGC Jim Urbina was so impressed by it he volunteered he thought they just went out there and built it by eye. That may be so of left #8 and left #9 at PVGC (the two Maxwell greens) because there seems to be no drawings or records of them at all in the archives but there are detailed drawings and text explanations of the 3-4 of Hugh Alison. Matter of fact, there're no green drawing dimensions of the rest by either Crump or Colt or anyone else, and PV's greens are some of the best in the world. The same is true of many of the greens at Merion, also some of the best in the world. Maybe just doing greens by eye is the way to go.  

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

There are two Perry Maxwell Green renderings in Geoff Shackelford's Golden Age of Golf Architecture, Page 197.

Both are from his reconstruction of Saucon Valley's greens. Seems like he used "flow arrows" and contour markings together.

Not exactly proof that used the same method at Pine Valley, but he did it somewhere.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Flynn's green detail drawing styles:

1921  Town and Country Club (MD) number 7 green



1923  Philadelphia Electric Company McCall Field Club number 2 green



1924  Columbia Country Club number 2 green



The final style is one Flynn used for presentations (its on linen the others on paper)  and the one that Tom is most familiar with.  Flynn indicated in his construction instructions how deep the bunkers would be and how high points around the green would be and the maximum slopes into the greens.  He had field drawings showing the stake heights as in the Philadelphia Electric Co course.  These stakes were measured to the fraction of a foot in relation to a zero point.

Wayne,

As you say, the middle drawing is not a green detail - its a field sketch checking grades, which gca's still use today.  Now, we use a ten foot grid in most cases.  If we are going for 2% slope, a 0.2 fall from point to point indicates its on slope.

Flynn's green details show a square being 8 sq. yds., about 25 feet, so its possible that the field grid is of just one 25 foot grid, since it is five spots tall and wide, which would make the grid in the field sketch five foot spacing. A quick look at the grades, usually about .1-.2 ft. differences, means that most of those areas would be from 2-5%, which is about right for the era.

[wsmorrison]

Nice going, Jeff.  Thanks very much!

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I agree with you about the holes being built as planned, but how about the greens?  I'm not so sure there.  I know you are not rebuilding greens at The Cascades, but did Craig measure internal green contouring and compare it to the drawings?  That comparision would be fasincating to see if he did.  I know that kind of work is very time consuming and is expensive if you are looking for a high level of detail.  

Also, a lot of old pushup greens settle over time changing the original contours.  Sometimes it is hard to tell what "the architect" designed vs. how a portion of a green settled out.  I know most guys including Flynn used a lot of different crews.  Guys like Mackenzie rarely used the same crew.  Their drawings (espeically their greens) were more conceptual in nature then as builts?  Not many if any of the dead guys did as built drawings.  They are rare to find.  
Mark  

[wsmorrison]

We can't say for sure the drawings we have are the final drawings in some cases.  As for the green contours, the ones for Rolling Green as an example mostly correspond to the current greens but several do not as in the case of the third green that is shown sloping back to front rather than the way it is today.  We think the green was built according to Flynn's plan but we don't have the final drawing.  It is a conceptual remake of the fourth at the Cascades.  They both look back to front but in fact are front to back.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
When you say "final" drawings, I'm assuming you mean the last ones done before the course and/or hole was built.  As builts, as you know, are drawings done "after" the course/holes are built.  Today with GPS and other technologies, there is no reason not to know exactly what was built, internal contours and all (if you want to spend the money).  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

In general, I'd say the outline of Flynn's greens were built as drawn in the instances we can compare construction era photographs and drawings.  I agree that settling and other factors may prevent the actual greens matching the drawings.  Then again, you have to factor evolutionary sand splash and other interventions both intentional and unintentional over the years.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I think you are right about the outlines of the greens being similar.  Internally, however, I'm not so sure they would match though they probably tried to come close and adjusted as necessary.  I asked Doak one time if he did green drawings and he said something along the lines that if forced to do them he would but otherwise they were not of much value.  Gil does drawings to please clients but has no map in hand when building his greens.  I watched him building a green at Boston GC and he didn't even use grading stakes.  He finished when "it was right".  

In that drawings collection, were any of Flynn's drawings done after the course was built?  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Do you mean apart from remodeling drawings he made for changes over the years such as at Merion, Lancaster, Cascades, Philadelphia Country and elsewhere?  He certainly did do plans for changes to existing courses.  If you mean did he draw "as built" renderings after the fact to illustrate the work on the ground,  I would say that he did not.

Why?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
The reason why is because as built drawings would show what is truly built, not what might have been planned to be built.  If during construction, the architect decided to shift the green a bit right, or make it slightly larger or whatever, those changes would then be captured.  The same would go for fairway lines,...,and all design features.

A GPS of the irrigation system is often done after it is installed so the Superintendent knows exactly where everything is.  These days, the same orocedure can take place for design features after a restoration or renovation or any kind of new construction.  No need to put trace wire around greens anymore to know exactly a greens shape and how big they are (for future reference).  These new technologies will make future restorations less guess work.

Mark

[wsmorrison]

"These new technologies will make future restorations less guess work."

Well, at least our kids and grandkids will have it easier if they get into architectural evolution research.  Too late for us old farts though  

[Chris_Clouser]

Kyle,

Those drawings of the Saucon Valley greens are not by Maxwell that appear in Geoff's book.  They were produced for the club in 1951 if my memory serves me right, look at the dates on the drawings to confirm.  That was four years after he was at SV.  He did very little traveling in 1951 because his health was starting to deteriorate.  Those drawings were done by William Gordon for the Grace course that was completed in 1953.

As for what Maxwell actually did.  I have found no evidence that he used drawings of any type, but there have been stories of him working in the field with detailed hole drawings that were twice the size of the typical ones used during the period, something like one yard equaling one inch on his drawings.  This would be contradictory for his character I think, but if he did it, it wasn't often as none of that documentation exists anymore to anyone's knowledge.  Maxwell was a notoriously bad artist and had his daughter actually help out with some of his work in the late 40s by doing some sketches at Clearwater in Florida and Pointe Clear in Alabama.  Prior to that, his construction manager, Dean Woods did some drawings for him of routings, but most of those were very simple in nature as well.

Chris

[TEPaul]

Chris:

Interesting about Maxwell and green drawings. Also interesting about those two drawings attributed to him in Geoff's book being Gordon. Makes sense to me and we should compare them to some we have of Gordon. Those arrow "flow-lines" on those two drawings certainly are reminiscent of Flynn which would make sense since William Gordon was one of his foremen for so many years.

I'd sure like to hear anything you have about Dean Wood. He was the so-called "Forgotten Man" of Maxwell's, wasn't he? Bill Coore once mentioned Maxwell's "forgotten man" to me although at the time he couldn't recall his name. Dean Wood had a brother who worked with Maxwell sometimes, correct?

Have you heard those old stories that apparently emanated from PVGC about how they generally could not find Maxwell on site because he was off at something like the Philadelphia orchestra leaving the construction work to Wood and the crew? If those guys did those two greens at PVGC by eye, particularly #9 left, it wouldn't surprise me and it would sure explain the feeling Jim Urbina had when standing on and looking at that green. We, on here, just might want to begin to note how good Jim Urbina himself is on shaping and making putting greens. Doak wouldn't tell us which greens at Sebonack were done by which company other than one he mentioned by Urbina and it's really something to behold. Let's not let Jim become a latter day "forgotten man"!  

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom,

I believe you have relayed that story to me about Pine Valley and Maxwell.  Dean Woods was Maxwell's construction foreman and also his brother-in-law.  Par Woods also helped Perry with some golf course work during the Depression because he didn't have any other work.  Perhaps the most famous contribution that he made was in the construction at Colonial when Maxwell was there in the mid 30s and again prior to the 41 US Open.  The other Woods brother, Morton, ran a dairy farm on Maxwell's land in Ardmore.  

Chris