[James Bennett]

Should we design our doglegs so that great players are rewarded for laying up to the corner with 4-irons off the tee?

Yes, I think that is one valid and interesting style of course you should consider building.

What you could end up with is a course on which a 40-year-old ten handicapper can hit three woods and drivers to the ideal landing areas from the members tee and the best players in the world can play the same "strategy" with 3-irons and 4-irons from the way back tees. Then the elite players will be rewarded with 9-irons and sand wedges from a good lie and angle whereas the members get to try their hybrids or fairway woods on the same approach shots.

I think that's at least as interesting a course as the more usual arrangement where there's a choice between:

a) double-digit handicappers play from tees 80, 90, 100 yards in front of the tournament tees or

b) the elite golfers play every hole driver, sand wedge.

Brent

if there is no real option off the tee, what is the difference between a 360 yard force lay-up par 4 and a shortish (150 yard) par 3?  If you force everybody to hit to a particular spot, why not reduce the par by one and just build a new tee.

David Tepper

a good point about the temperature.  Hot summer golf and the ball does go a long way.  I wonder how long Southern Hills plays in October - perhaps 5% longer on the carry, and perhaps a few % on the roll as well.  And, the greens wouldn't need to be as well watered.   I expect Maxwell designed for a year-round golf-course, not one just for professional golf in August.

James B

[mike_beene]

In this part of the country the courses are much more difficult in the fall,winter and spring.The rough is not quite as severe,but the greens are a little faster,much firmer,there are a lot of hardpan rough lies around the green and the ball does not carry as far.I bet Southern Hills gives its greens a little break next week.Lots of luck above the hole in October.

[Kalen Braley]

I think it would be very interesting to watch the Tour play a whole year on "shorter" courses such as Southern Hills.

And I would like to see Tiger Woods play a whole year without a driver in the bag -- regardless of what course he's playing.

I bet he'd win even more often than he does.

I think your right on that one DK...

But...did you see him smoke that drive on #15 today or maybe it was 16??  When he crushed that driver and gives it that twirl...it never gets old in my book.

So the question then to DK and everyone.  If they played the whole year on shorter courses like this one and Colonial or a Riveria, does Tiger win more or less events???

[SB]

They said Tiger hit Driver - Wedge on the 507 yard par 4 16th.  I doubt Maxwell had that in mind when he designed the course.

[JSlonis]

Tiger said he tried to hit it to the same spots that he did in 2001, but due to the heat and the firmness of the fairways, he hit less club.  He mentioned that the fairways were firmer while the greens were softer.

[Wayne_Kozun]

What you could end up with is a course on which a 40-year-old ten handicapper can hit three woods and drivers to the ideal landing areas from the members tee and the best players in the world can play the same "strategy" with 3-irons and 4-irons from the way back tees. Then the elite players will be rewarded with 9-irons and sand wedges from a good lie and angle whereas the members get to try their hybrids or fairway woods on the same approach shots.

Brent I think you are undestimating the 40 year old!  I am a 42 year old 10 handicapper of approximately average length for a 10.  I hit my driver about 240.  Assuming that the "way back" tees are 30-40 yards longer then the members tees then they will have to be hitting there irons 270-280 to be at the same spot as I am.  Maybe Tiger can hit his 2 iron that far but not too many other elite players can.  And I don't think many 10s hit a hybrid from about the 150-160 that most pros hit a 9 iron.

[Jay Flemma]

The recap of Tiger's birdies was frightening to read in the paper.

First hole:  2-iron, 8-iron to six feet.
Fourth hole:  3-iron, 9-iron to twenty feet.
Fifth hole:  Driver, 6-iron, sand wedge to eight feet.
Ninth hole:  4-iron, 8-iron to a foot.
Tenth hole:  5-iron, 9-iron to four feet.
Thirteenth hole (a par five):  3-wood, 7-iron to bunker, up & down.
Fifteenth hole:  4-iron, 7-iron to twenty feet.

I'm not taking anything away from his great round, or from his course management.  I am just wondering if Perry Maxwell ever envisioned that the "options" he was providing off the tees at Southern Hills would one day be whether to hit a 2-iron or a 5-iron from the tee.

Also, interesting that Tiger seems to be laying back to 8-iron or 9-iron distance and avoiding his wedges.  Probably just a function of the dimensions of the doglegs, but possibly not.

here's another staggering stat...of the five times he missed the fairway, four times he hit the green out of that "difficult" rough.  Honestly, it looked nowhere near as bad as us open rough.

also, he teed off on ten today with a seven iron...as seven iron!

That's just stupid long.

[David Lott]

Tiger Himself noted in one of his interviews this week that the balls have gotten longer and straighter in the past six years. And that the landing areas for driver have become more narrow. So as usual he is being smart--hitting a lot of two irons off the tee because he can hit it 270, and then having confidence that he can hit the green from further out.

Aside from his talent and remarkable concentration, one reason he can be confident that he will hit greens from further back is that the ball is longer and straighter.

For Mr. Doak: How do you think Tiger would play your course at Bandon? I  imagine he would hit even more irons off the tee. However, Bandon was designed for this. Do you, Mr. Doak, think there is a difference between courses originally designed to present an iron off the tee as an option, and one that has evolved to that status because of equipment changes?

[Glenn Spencer]

I think it would be very interesting to watch the Tour play a whole year on "shorter" courses such as Southern Hills.

And I would like to see Tiger Woods play a whole year without a driver in the bag -- regardless of what course he's playing.

I bet he'd win even more often than he does.

I think your right on that one DK...

But...did you see him smoke that drive on #15 today or maybe it was 16??  When he crushed that driver and gives it that twirl...it never gets old in my book.

So the question then to DK and everyone.  If they played the whole year on shorter courses like this one and Colonial or a Riveria, does Tiger win more or less events???

He did nail that one and you are right, it never gets old. What is getting old is that lean and move with his head that he does if the ball is going offline. It is the first thing that I have seen Tiger do that isn't "cool."

[Jay Flemma]

Tiger Himself noted in one of his interviews this week that the balls have gotten longer and straighter in the past six years. And that the landing areas for driver have become more narrow. So as usual he is being smart--hitting a lot of two irons off the tee because he can hit it 270, and then having confidence that he can hit the green from further out.

Aside from his talent and remarkable concentration, one reason he can be confident that he will hit greens from further back is that the ball is longer and straighter.

That's right too, David.  He did say that.  You know, he may be as smart a player as he is deeply talented.  On the occasions I've had to talk golf with him, he's always given deep lucid accurate answers.

[Mike Sweeney]

If the US Open was at Merion today, where would Tiger hit driver?

2 - probably not with OB right

4 - maybe

6 - maybe

14 - maybe

18 - probably, but not if he is protecting a lead

[wsmorrison]

A lot depends on the conditions, including wind and firmness.  

I don't think he'd hit driver on #2 because he can probably reach the green with two 3-wood shots or 3-wood, 2-iron.  

I think he'd hit driver on #4 to reach the green in two.

He would definitely hit driver on #5 (504 yards par 4).  I'd love to see him play that hole.

He would likely hit driver on #6 from the back tees (485).

He would not likely hit driver on #14 as it is today, but would if they get it to play ~485 yards.

He might hit driver on 15 depending upon the pin and the firmness of the green.

You're right about 18 on Sunday if he is protecting a lead, however, I think he'd hit driver on other days, especially into the wind.

[Steve Lapper]

I'd agree with most of what the predictions above suggest, but would think he'd never try it on 15 as the risk/reward (OB Left, Auto Bogey or worse too far right) is too great, regardless of the pin and firmness of that green.

Would he try to drive #10? If so, would it require a driver?

Could #7 be driven? Maybe the surrounding bunkers?

[Mike Sweeney]

Would he try to drive #10? If so, would it require a driver?

Could #7 be driven? Maybe the surrounding bunkers?

I forgot 5 in my original post.

I would think 10 is a 3 wood that they leave right at the front of the green.

I too think 15 has limited reward for a driver. Rather be on a flatish spot down below rather than the upslope.

I looked at 7 last trip, and that would be insanity to go for it, but reality is I have no idea how these guys hit the shots they do.

I really hope they don't move the green on #2, but I would not bet against it.

Olympic fans are you awake yet? Be interested in how that will play off the tee.

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