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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2005, 02:01:24 PM »

I've seen the Ranch. I walked it with friends who were playing there. I would make sure not a single dimes comes out of my pocket to give to that course. I believe it isn't just a bad course, but it is way overprices and bad for golf. So I don't play there.


Just to get on this first....how about if you were comped at the Ranch? ;)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2005, 02:04:43 PM »
You are a hard man Brent.  This type of attitude combined with that stingy nature of yours leaves me between a rock and a hard place.  Those Thursdays in July are sacred.  Yes, I still remember those many putts that weren't conceded.  I have since purchased a hearing aid because I am sure you must have said "thats good" several times.    

Right, if I could play Sand Hills, Cypress or Shinny, with my father and two other chaps of his choice, I would give up 4 weeks of fine English summer.  If I have no choice of the playing partners, 2.5 weeks is ample dues.  Does this mean I have an asterisk by my name?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2005, 02:04:53 PM »
Hint?  What?  I'm kinda asleep at the wheel here.

Dan, we shall make Santa Teresa happen soon enough - that would be very fun.  It surely has a large place in my heart as well.  You know the slow play issues going in, so we'll just expect it.  

As for the rest, you can guess - and read - my take on not paying for golf at courses out of principle.  But I am not wholly addicted and whoreish - I have yet to give THE RANCH a single cent of my money.  I have been sorely tempted though... it is rather easy to get a tee-time there...

Well said re books, web-sites, etc. also.  We all have different joneses in this game.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2005, 02:06:23 PM »
JES - way to cut to the chase!  I'll be interested in Dan's answer there.  Just remember he's not a "ranker."   ;)

I've been comped there twice.  Once as a rater, once as a ranker.

I felt like a wanker both times.

 ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2005, 02:08:52 PM »

Tom H,

         You touched on one of the reasons why Ed Getka is my hero, his focus on quality over quantity.  Ed realizes is a busy guy and wants to maximize his golf time. He realized that he is not going to get 75-100 rounds of golf in and wanted the most out of the 15-25 times he does play. And he's fine with that.

        I mostly fall into the quantity camp.. i just wanna play.  On my best year I played 81 different golf courses. I am fortunate we have a low cost and well maintained muni course here and I still get to play the occasional classic course.  Playing these lesser courses gives me an appreciation of these great courses.

      I often wondered if I was a member of a great course if at sometime I would become jaded and not appreciate what I have.  

Craig - oh Ed's way of treating this is valid, for sure. Just do understand also it's not like I'm playing every day.  I'll be lucky to post 50 rounds this year.  I just have a hard time understanding saying NO to golf when doable and offered, saving it for a better golf course.

But to each his own, for sure.

TH

Brent Hutto

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2005, 02:11:11 PM »
Sean,

Rest assured that next time we meet I'll have no reason to see you putt from five feet in. I just wanted to be able to tell people "I know that Sean Arble never misses a six-foot putt" instead of "I'm pretty sure that Sean Arble never misses a six-foot putt". Now I know for sure. That sandy on the last little Par 3 to match our closest to the pin was the final twist of the knife.

Oh, and you can have both scores, a 4* and a 2.5 without the asterisk. I like numbers, the more the better.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2005, 02:11:28 PM »
Just remember he's not a "ranker."   ;)

 ;D

Just stirring the pot.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2005, 02:18:20 PM »
JES II writes:
Just to get on this first....how about if you were comped at the Ranch?

I did walk it for free.

After seeing the course I'm not sure how much they would have to pay me to get me to go back. I'm sure there is some sort of amount that would get me to make a return visit, I'm just not sure how much it is. (I recognize I'm a whore, only my price hasn't been determined yet).

Dan King
Quote
A study of economics usually reveals that the best time to buy anything is last year.
 --Marty Allen

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2005, 02:25:04 PM »
It's only "snobby" if you go to the lesser course and tell them how a better architect would do it or how it's done at some of the big name courses you've played. I enjoy the occassional mundane course because it gives me a chance to think "how could this mundane course become something or done differently? What could they do to provide interest?"

Electing not to play a mundane course over something more interesting is just playing the role of the consumer.  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2005, 02:27:26 PM »
Dan,

It's like your lifetime goal with a hooker, only carried to the next level. I wonder where you could find a girl so grateful you showed up she would pay.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 02:34:28 PM by JES II »

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2005, 02:29:59 PM »
Snobbery really comes in when you take your filet mignon expectation to a hamburger course and find it wanting in every aspect.

I don't see anything wrong with holding an acknowledged classic to the highest standards while fully enjoying a whack-around on the local muni. They are distinct experiences.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Brent Hutto

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2005, 02:42:56 PM »
One benefit of this kind of snobbery is that it will clue you in to things that are actually present at less-than-celestial designs you play all the time. At my for-a-few-more-weeks home course yesterday I happened to hit a tee shot a little longer and somewhat further to the right than I ever have before (combination of an odd wind direction and playing from the up tees).

This is the shortest Par 4 on our tournament 18 and fittingly has an awkward, uphill approach shot to a very tricky green protected by two deep bunkers and water behind. When I got to my ball yesterday, I realized that from 100 yards out and all the way to the right it was the simplest approach shot you'd ever want to see. Right up the full length of the green which slopes down toward you and one of the bunkers is totally out of play.

I guess I don't play with good enough players to put the ball there very often. If I had managed to hit the fairway over there it would be a nigh-automatic birdie even for a high marker like me. The problem of course is that from the back tees you'd be aiming at about an eight by twenty yard stretch of fairway oriented at an angle. A few yards long or right and you're in thick rough (like me), a few yards short and you don't have the good angle and if you miss long and left there's a fairway bunker.

Honestly, two years ago I wouldn't have noticed any of that stuff. I'd have arrived at the ball and thought "Ooh, I got lucky and ended up with an easy shot".

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2005, 02:43:49 PM »
Having written a number of books which have included good, bad and indifferent courses, I quickly developed an eye for looking for the good and overlooking or ignoring the bad, and very rarely did I find a course about which there is nothing positive to be said.  Unfortunately there are just such awful courses in this area - bottom of the market pay-and-play - and you just want to ask them quietly to go away and don't let potential golfers think that this is the real thing.  Apart from that I get a lot of pleasure in actually seeking out the good points of a course, which is why I enjoy many of our lesser courses.  However, I do not have a lot of money to spare for golf so I am talking about low green fees which perhaps makes me keener to find their good points.  Painswick was perfect for me on those counts - except that I couldn't play it!  It means, of course, that my eye is so trained that when occasionally I set foot on an architectural masterpiece I usually manage to spot most of the great and lesser features and I appreciate the honour of being there all the more.  

I suppose it's the same with wine. As long as the wine is honestly made, true to its grape varities and terroir and fairly priced, I can get pleasure from a 2-euro bottle of rose washing down a simple salade nicoise.  Perhaps at the weekend one of the new wave Bordeaux fringe reds (have you experienced some of the things currently coming out of Blaye, for instance?) at around £10, and for Christmas perhaps a Roumier Chambolle-Musigny at ca £25.  The point about the Chambolle is that it isn't Le Musigny or Bonnes-Mares, but it is from a grower who lavishes as much care and attention to his straight village wine as he does on his Grands Crus.  Similarly a lesser-known, comparatively humble Colt or Fowler course of perhaps under 6,000 yards will give me as much pleasure at £25-30 a round as almost anything above £50 apart from the undoubted greats.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2005, 03:04:44 PM »
I find great delight in stumbling across architectural merit - I'm not bright enough to discover it. I see a lot of good in the mundane.  

That said,  I am astonished at how great some golf courses are.  They blow me away.  I'll never get over Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Sand Hills and THE Old Course, just to name a few.  It's hard to stay down on the farm, even when you're a farmer by habit, nature and choice.  

Brent, to answer your question:  The Old Course was worth 52 weeks.  

Mike
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 03:27:18 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2005, 03:10:35 PM »
Snobbery really comes in when you take your filet mignon expectation to a hamburger course and find it wanting in every aspect.

I don't see anything wrong with holding an acknowledged classic to the highest standards while fully enjoying a whack-around on the local muni. They are distinct experiences.

That's exceedingly well-said, and worth keeping in mind.  Muchas gracias, Kirk.

And this whole topic remains fascinating to me.  Now another friend and idol Mr. Hendren says he'd give up golf for a year just to play The Old Course.  Wow.  This kind of course devotion is incredible to me.

Guys I sacrificed my mortal marital soul to do Sand Hills this year, and it was well worth it.  But I was playing again at local crap a week later, and loving it.  Would I have sacrificed the entire year for those 3 days, even with the all-star cast from this forum who were in attendance?

Sorry guys.  Some prices are too high to pay.  But I do believe that's the closest thing to making me give up the game for awhile... thankfully that choice wasn't required.

 ;D
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 03:11:49 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Jim Adkisson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2005, 03:42:48 PM »
As a Muni and Public Course player, I am thankfull for the large number of reasonably priced courses for me to play in the Portland, OR metro area...There are a few that I will not bother to play, but I certainly appreciate that they are there to fill up with players that aren't on the course I do want to play on any given day...My favorite courses that I am able to play are strong courses with interesting architectural features that make for a fun romp with my Flogging friends, but do not compare with the finest of courses that are discussed on this site...But my appreciation for the features that make those quality munis so great amonst their local peers is certainly enhanced by the discussion, photos and course descriptions on this site.

Would I give up golf for a year to play at TOC?...Heck no!...I look out my office window and see the sun shining and the trees swaying and I am trying to see how I can skip out a couple hours before sundown to get in a few swipes at whitey TODAY.

And Bandon is a short 4-1/2 hour drive away.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2005, 03:46:33 PM »
Well, let's see, locally I played Dead Horse Lake (5 times or more), Knoxville Municipal (2), Pine Lakes (2), Whittle Springs and one or two more.  And I enjoyed the golf.


John,

Wow.  Between your mentioning these golf courses and the Vols being 4 and 6, I'm having some major late 1970's flashbacks!  I might have to put on some beach music and grab a six-pack of Busch on the way home.  Too bad there's no Sam & Andy's nearby. :'(

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2005, 03:50:59 PM »
Mike:

Funny you should mention that W/L record.  I wasn't gonna say anything - hey kicking a man while he's down needs to be saved for the right time - but I just do need to report that my in-laws were EXCEEDINGLY happy on Saturday night.

Vandy grads.  They don't have much to be happy about usually, as you know.

Now back to architectural snobbery - a great topic indeed.

TH
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 03:51:08 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Brent Hutto

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2005, 03:55:51 PM »
Yeah, kicking Tennessee's butt this season was kind of like playing Pebble Beach. Anyone can show up, pay their $490 and do it. My own Gamecocks even slipped past the 'Vols and they're so inept that can't even manage one lousy touchdown against a bunch of orange-clad rednecks from right up the road.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2005, 03:59:41 PM »
There is no question that every golf course has its virtues. The biggest one they all have is being a golf course to be played. I remember learning the ground game on my local muni which was kept in horendous shape and a course without much if any architectural merit. I feel we tend to discuss the higher pedegree of courses on here because they are better know and a larger percentage of us can contribute. Not many of you are familiar with the Muni in Monroe Louisiana, therefore it would be and one man discussion of the unique aspects of this very average course.

BigEdSC

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2005, 04:08:06 PM »
Mike
     I had the same flashback.  Sam & Andy's, The Last Lap, a 4-7 record (1977) and playing golf at Dead Horse Lake, and Pine Lakes.  Seems like life always goes full circle.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 04:09:21 PM by Ed Galbavy »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2005, 08:15:28 PM »
I'm sure I would be considered a snob by most, and that's okay.  I don't get to play many rounds of golf per year, but when I do I can generally find a good course to play them on.

I really enjoy playing any course which would get a 4 or higher on the Doak scale -- it just has to have SOMETHING to pique my interest.  The others I don't have time for.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2005, 09:49:10 PM »
Yeah, kicking Tennessee's butt this season was kind of like playing Pebble Beach. Anyone can show up, pay their $490 and do it. My own Gamecocks even slipped past the 'Vols and they're so inept that can't even manage one lousy touchdown against a bunch of orange-clad rednecks from right up the road.

Hey... I resemble that remark. And, just when I was starting to warm up to you!

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 09:50:03 PM by Michael Whitaker »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2005, 11:41:13 PM »
Tom,
   Interesting what you said about the SH trip. Had I made that trip with the guys involved I could have given up the game of golf and been quite content.
    The other thing that just occured to me is that I can take your golf attitude and apply it to hiking in nature. I love Yosemite (its where my ashes will be spread), but I can be happy out in nature anywhere.
   
Brent,
   52 weeks is a little long, but I do have my sights set on Australia for spring '07, and will be turning down (unfortunately) many golfing opportunities to be able to accomplish that. However, May and Aug/Sep next year will keep me dreaming with a smile on my face. In the meantime, I will enjoy the heck out of my kids, spend the winter in the woods doing some photography, and otherwise have golf on the back burner.
    Its not so hard to give up the golf part, but I really have a hard time turning down opportunities to meet GCA guys I haven't met before. Right now I'm scrambling to see Martin, Bill Vostinak, and go to the Pacific Book Auction within a one week period. It's a tough life. 8)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 11:42:00 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2005, 09:53:00 AM »
Ed G,

No trips to TX in the foreseeable future?  Hill Country golf and Big Bend Natl. Park would be right up your alley.  Austin Golf Club and Big Bend are no Sand Hills and Yosemite, respectively, but they are fantastic in their own rights.

OZ in '07 is also in my sights.  Perhaps we'll run into each other!

As to playing golf, I get antsy when dust begins to settle on the clubs.  Two week breaks are about my limit, though I've lost my love for practicing.  Now I've got to work on my expectations so as not to get too frustrated.

BTW, Redanman is a great diagnostician, and I like his direct, no-nonsense bedside manner.  In my case, he prescribed a two week hiatus followed immediately by one of permanent duration.  

BTW2, how are the erhu lessons coming?  I hear that shivas may need a feature string soloist for his family's Persian wedding in Beverly Hills (they think Sinatra is playing the wedding so it is doubtful they'll know your instrument's derivation).  I would wish your selection as his partner in the RC match, but I still consider you a friend.  ;)