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TEPaul

Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« on: November 20, 2005, 09:01:21 AM »
You're not just whistling Dixie, we do. Check out the very last section of "Hazard's" (Tillinghast) article in The American Golfer of January 1918 that begins;

"A golf course for the exclusive use of negroes is to be opened in Pleasantville, near Atlantic City."

ForkaB

Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2005, 09:29:19 AM »
"A golf course for the exclusive use of negroes is to be opened in Pleasantville, near Atlantic City."

That's "man bites dog" stuff.  Much more interesting than the more common factoid of the "golden age":

"A golf course for the exclusive use of white anglo-saxon protestants is to be opened in ____________, near ______________."
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 09:31:15 AM by Rich Goodale »

Craig Sweet

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 11:04:30 AM »
Political correctness is interesting in its broadest sense. We have legislated to some extent out of existance much of what was once used to divide us....Civil rights, employment discrimination laws, handicap access laws, discrimination based on religion,etc.etc. have brought a more diverse people together and now we have to learn how to deal with it...be "politically correct"....you didn't have to worry about whether it was negro...black...afro american...or whatever, when you didn't have to rub shoulders with someone of color.

The one great divider left is money...those that have it can still segregate themselves from anyone they don't want to be around...in my opinion, much of golf has been like that through out its history. It has much to do with golf being tied to land and land for the most part being privately held...those with the means to own land could do what they pleased and create segregated memberships on their golf courses. Not much has changed. Even a "public" course that costs $250 a round is not likely to have too many Joe Six-Packs running around slicing into the rough and defiling its greens.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Brad Klein

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 11:30:59 AM »
Ali G now faces the collective wrath of Kazahkstan, and he's one of thre funniest guys in the world.

It's over - you can hardly get away with a sense of humor anymore without someone getting offended.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2005, 11:44:36 AM »
The one great divider left is money...those that have it can still segregate themselves from anyone they don't want to be around...in my opinion, much of golf has been like that through out its history. It has much to do with golf being tied to land and land for the most part being privately held...those with the means to own land could do what they pleased and create segregated memberships on their golf courses. Not much has changed. Even a "public" course that costs $250 a round is not likely to have too many Joe Six-Packs running around slicing into the rough and defiling its greens.
Do you include golf in Scotland in this analysis or are you just referring to America?  Public and private golf in Scotland for locals is quite inexpensive even at the courses that charge upwars of 100 quid to us foreigners

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2005, 11:56:58 AM »
TEPaul,

When doing a master plan for a city of Dallas course recently, I came across some documents that the city of Dallas had provided "Negro Only" couirses about the same time period.  

They developed both Stevens Park and Tennison Park from land grants of prominent citizens in about 1923-4.  Oddly, it took the recession of 1930 and beyond for the Dallas City courses to be sucessful. They lost money from 1923-30.

They had special courses for blacks not long after, including one where Love Field now sits, which was sort of a land bank, and others that were in very poor flood plain sites, not always 18 holes, and poorly maintained, even by muni standards of the day.  But somehow, they recognized their need to provide services for blacks, even accepting (apparently) the notion that they should be inferior......

There was a big ruckus in Ft. Worth over blacks accessing the public courses.  There was a group called (from memory) the Golden Knights that fought hard to do so, with the city fighting back.  A year later, in 1957, some black golfers attempted to access Stevens Park, and they were allowed to simply pay their fee and play without incident or comment, with the City of Dallas either enlightened, or unwilling to fight what was probably a losing battle.

It boggles the mind that this wasn't just a "southern thing" and also that the black middle class, such as it was, took to golf.  I always wonder what life back then would have been like!  

BTW, Les Claytor, who sometimes participates here, did his Masters Thesis on the history of blacks on public courses, which has a lot more info on this interesting subject.  He gave me a copy, which I think I still have somewhere, and maybe he could share some of what he found.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2005, 12:03:40 PM »
Would Don Rickles still have the same act today if he was a new comedian on the rise? Probably not. Times change.

Cobbs Creek was the home course of PGA Hal of Famer Charlie Sifford in the 1940s.

Wasn't there a course in South NJ that was known as "the black club"- Turnersville?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2005, 12:08:45 PM »
...The one great divider left is money...those that have it can still segregate themselves from anyone they don't want to be around...in my opinion, much of golf has been like that through out its history. It has much to do with golf being tied to land and land for the most part being privately held...those with the means to own land could do what they pleased and create segregated memberships on their golf courses. Not much has changed. Even a "public" course that costs $250 a round is not likely to have too many Joe Six-Packs running around slicing into the rough and defiling its greens.

And a computer with net access!  Those who can get out of urban problems by having an info job are doing so.  Just drive any valley in Colorado, like the I-70 Corridor to see that.  There is an innate ability that is growing allowing those with money to get far, far from any others they don't want to assoicate with.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Curry

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2005, 12:08:47 PM »
No, people may get offended about everything but it still gets aired.


Craig Sweet

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2005, 12:23:20 PM »
Jeff...

"And a computer with net access!  Those who can get out of urban problems by having an info job are doing so."

No kidding! I recently was visting one of my Hickory Farms stores in Great Falls Montana and I ran into a woman in the mall that I hadn't seen in 15 years! The last I knew she was living near Hamilton Montana (home of The Stock Farm development). Her husband is a writer on the verge of having his first book published. They moved two years ago to Augusta,Montana to escape the Californians moving into the Bitterroot valley. Augusta is way, way out there and north of just about everything. Only a small handful of rich people have discovered that portion of Montana.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Garland Bayley

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2005, 12:57:33 PM »
Ali G now faces the collective wrath of Kazahkstan, and he's one of thre funniest guys in the world.

It's over - you can hardly get away with a sense of humor anymore without someone getting offended.

Of course you can get away with a sense of humor, especially if it is intelligent humor. Tim Conway demonstrated on the "College of Comedy" programs that appeared on public broadcasting that the easy humor is the politically incorrect humor. He maintained that surprise is what makes something funny. That being politically incorrect is any easy way to bring about the surprise. He then demonstrated jokes that were surprising by not being politically correct when their tenor seemed that they would be politically incorrect. He clearly outclassed his fellow "professors" on the show in the humor of his jokes.

Isn't political correctness just another name for decency and good manners? Hopefully as civilization evolves we will have a better recognition of what is decent and behave accordingly.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pat_Mucci

Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2005, 11:14:21 PM »

Isn't political correctness just another name for decency and good manners?

NO, it's not.

It's an absurdity of righteousness, and largely dependent upon who the involved party's are, rather than what the substance, context and intent are.

When Fisher Deberry gets villified for saying something that virtually everyone acknowledges is true, and Chris Carter on National Television confirms same as fact, then political correctness has become the theatre of the absurd, and a tool for stifling and demonizing opposition or free thought.

Where is Clarence Darrow when you need him ?
[/color]


Hopefully as civilization evolves we will have a better recognition of what is decent and behave accordingly.

After a few millieneum, everyone knows, or should know what's decent and how to behave by now.
[/color]
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 11:16:27 PM by Pat_Mucci »

paul cowley

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2005, 11:55:08 PM »
Patrick Mucci....I do enjoy when you get to the point that you let the blue ink out!......good show ;).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Dan King

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2005, 12:00:40 AM »
I don't understand the point of this thread.

While talking about the fact that courses at one time were segregated by race, rather than celebrating the fact they no longer are, we are instead not happy that we can't use the word negro anymore?

I guess there are people who like to use the word "negro" much more than I ever have.

Dan King
Quote
All those who are not racially pure are mere chaff.
 --Adolf Hitler


paul cowley

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2005, 12:06:54 AM »
and Tom M...I do not know or want to be presumptuous but, assuming you are or be white, and if so .....please write the N word as n----r, least you affend folks.

praise hardees!


 ;)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 12:29:55 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jim Nugent

Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2005, 02:01:08 AM »
I don't understand the point of this thread.

While talking about the fact that courses at one time were segregated by race, rather than celebrating the fact they no longer are, we are instead not happy that we can't use the word negro anymore?

I guess there are people who like to use the word "negro" much more than I ever have.

Dan King
Quote
All those who are not racially pure are mere chaff.
 --Adolf Hitler



Like Dan, I'm not sure what the point of the thread is either.  However, I agree with Pat.

Always have found it interesting that negro means "black" in Spanish.  

TEPaul

Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2005, 06:49:09 AM »
Dan and Jim;

Since I started this thread, I'd be happy to tell you what my point was by posting it---it was, by the example of this quote in this article, to show us today on this website who really do seem to live in a world we call "politically correct" just how different things used to be and used to be even in apparently non-political magazines such as "The American Golfer" in 1918.  

My other point was to show that words and ideas used in a former time as this quote seems to indicate were not so politically or perhaps even racially charged in that former time as we like to think they were today. I'm certainly not condoning the type of structural segregation or even racism of that former time only trying to show by a quote and article like this from "Hazard" (Tillinghast) the way the world was back then.

I love history and my biggest fixation with it is to unveil it and show it the way it really was and not how we, generations later and in another era wish to see it because of the world we live in today.

For instance, I'm old enough to remember the word "negro". It was the only word used for the race we now know called "Blacks". Actually "black" seems to have gone out of favor to some extent probably due to rampant "political correctness" and it seems that "African American" is the most politically correct label today as it indicates both race origin and current nationality.

I have absolutely no idea if A.W. Tillinghast was a racist or not, I'm just trying to show what was probably as politically correct in 1918 as what we think of as politically correct today. I'm quite sure by Tillinghast's use of words in that article he was not trying to create some type of racial ruckus in what he said. (Wait until I quote the last sentence of his article).

Again, if someone on here thinks I'm trying to act the racist by this thread, I'm not. I'm only trying to show the way it was then and the way things were expressed then.

Wayne and I have talked a lot about how to treat various things in the past in the Flynn book which may sound offensive today due to current political correctness. My sense is to treat them and write them precisely the way they were then and the way they were spoken back then.

I say that because I don't like sanitized history at all. My sense is to present it precisely the way it really was---warts and all. I think that's the only way it can be best understood and the best way for those of us today and in the future to learn from it.

paul cowley

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2005, 07:29:18 AM »
Tom ...I agree and the only way that we as a culture can move forward is to drop and de-sensitize the labels and special names as soon as they come into acceptance and keep moving forward.
I know this sounds simple coming from an Irish or probably more correctly a  Caucasian American [based on race origin and current nationality], but hey, todays going to at least start out half full.

...oh, and have a nice day  :).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2005, 07:35:21 AM »
"I know this sounds simple coming from an Irish or probably more correctly a  Caucasian American [based on race origin and current nationality], but hey, todays going to at least start out half full."

Paul:

That's very fine and even if some may not think so that's much better than starting out today half empty!  ;)

Jason Topp

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2005, 11:26:15 AM »
It is an interesting dilemma regarding how to portray someone historically when they used terms that are lightning rods today.  My instinct would be to quote verbatum and let the chips fall where they may.  

I always cringe when the "politically correct" discussion comes up.  It creates a clash between ideals that are fundamental to me:  (1) respect for other people and (2) open honest discussions.

On one hand, attacks labelled as "political correctness attacks" are based on a demand for respect, which I believe has had overwhelmingly positive results on the whole.  There have been fundamental changes in the ideals and actions of American society over the last 40 years and I hope that change continues.

On the other hand, I believe that it has become difficult to have any sort of meaningful discussion about racial issues because there is a witch hunt mentality regarding whether one is a "racist" or not.  

In truth, I think everyone makes assumptions about people they meet based on first impressions and race is a big part of that first impression.  Thus, to some extent anyone can be labelled a racist, the only difference is a matter of degree.  The taint of such a label has become so large that the label becomes the focus point of discussion rather than important underlying issues of economic opportunity, education, integration policies and self help policies.



JeffTodd

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2005, 11:49:38 AM »

Wasn't there a course in South NJ that was known as "the black club"- Turnersville?
Freeway Golf Course, in neighboring Sicklerville, was (I believe) the first black owned and operated course in the US. Sadly, the course is about as interesting as playing on an actual freeway.

What was the course in Pleasantville, and is it still in operation?

Phil_the_Author

Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2005, 03:23:05 PM »
Tom,

You wrote, "I have absolutely no idea if A.W. Tillinghast was a racist or not... I'm quite sure by Tillinghast's use of words in that article he was not trying to create some type of racial ruckus in what he said..."

You went on to say, "I say that because I don't like sanitized history at all. My sense is to present it precisely the way it really was---warts and all. I think that's the only way it can be best understood and the best way for those of us today and in the future to learn from it."

As someone who is also fascinated with history and the accurate presentation of it, and who also has a deep interest in Tilly's life & times, I thought that I'd share an anecdote from my tilly bio that I believe will both answer the question of his view on race and show the "warts" that existed in his time.

"These, though, weren’t the only visitors to come calling on Tillinghast at this time. Some were unwelcome and came at night, very late at night.
      With the Depression at its height there was very little work going on, in fact the only new work Tillinghast found in 1931 was a small renovation at Wykagyl and the wonderful new design of Alpine in New Jersey, a project that proved both difficult and time-consuming. Tilly, who was a very difficult taskmaster in overseeing his workers, had decided that his foreman was not doing a good job. He not only was drinking on the job, an irony that wasn’t lost on Tilly, but no longer held the respect of the workers, who were not producing as Tilly felt they should. The only choice he felt he had was to fire him.
      This was a difficult thing to do, but especially at this time, with the Great Depression already several years in length and with no end in sight. This also meant that he would have to hire a new foreman, and fortunately he had the perfect man for the job, a man who was already a leader on his work crews and who was greatly respected by all those he worked with. A man named Lonny, a black man.
      This was quite a controversial thing to do. How could he fire a white “boss” and put a black man in his place, and over other white workers at that? Needless to say, in doing this he upset some people.
      Lonny, though, was a very humble man, and suggested to Tilly that he might be making a mistake, after all, he “didn’t know how to read and write.”
      Tilly’s response was that he’d teach him.
      Lonny responded asking how he could he tell the men what to do since he “didn’t know the technical terms or have the education for it?”
      Tillinghast simply said, “Lonny, I’ll teach you.”
      Well, Lonny finally agreed to do it, but reminded his boss that since it was now fall he should remember that Lonny would be leaving New Jersey in a few weeks for his winter job in the fields of North Carolina, but would be back, as always, in the spring.
      Tilly said, “No, you won’t. I want you to stay, you and your wife Mary, and live with my family. You can stay in the apartment above the carriage house. I will teach you everything you need to know over the winter. The only thing I ask that you do is shovel the snow and drive my wife where she needs to go.”
      So his new foreman Lonny, along with his wife Mary, moved above the carriage house, where they enjoyed a warm winter. In fact some nights were decidedly warmer than others.
      It was that winter that the unwanted visitors came calling often, and always late at night.
      Barbara vividly remembers one evening being awakened from a sound sleep by some noise, in fact by a lot of noise, coming from out in back of the house. Afraid, she called for her mother, who didn’t answer.
      Getting out of bed, she opened her door and walked down the short hallway to where her mother stood staring out the second story window, oblivious to her young daughter.
      Attracted by the glimmering of lights and noise from outside, she walked over and peeked out from behind her mother. This was the first time that Barbara Worden Manny saw a cross being burned by a group of men. Several times that winter, members of the Ku Klux Klan, who at that time maintained an active presence in New Jersey, burned crosses on his lawn to protest Tilly’s promotion of Lonny.
      The Klan had misjudged the object of their protests. Tillinghast had stood up to much greater and better men than these. Lonny kept managing his crews for as long as he had workers."

I believe this tells a great deal about Tilly the man.



Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2005, 03:56:48 PM »
Quote
Wayne and I have talked a lot about how to treat various things in the past in the Flynn book which may sound offensive today due to current political correctness. My sense is to treat them and write them precisely the way they were then and the way they were spoken back then.
I say that because I don't like sanitized history at all. My sense is to present it precisely the way it really was---warts and all. I think that's the only way it can be best understood and the best way for those of us today and in the future to learn from it.-TEPaul

Tom,
I could see your point if you were writing social commentary but what purpose is served by including insensitive material in a book about golf architecture?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2005, 04:05:43 PM »
Jim - there is no doubt including such language would detract if the focus of the writing is purely on golf architecture.  I do think it is interesting, nonetheless to see how the norms of the day might have impacted golden age architects.  

For example, at least in my area, most courses built in the 20's were built by name architects except for the clubs formed by Jewish groups.  This could be due to random chance, it could be due to the choices made by the clubs, it could be due to views held by the architects, or it could have been financial suicide for an architect working for private blue blood clubs to take on a Jewish club for a project.  I honestly do not know and have not researched the topic.  It provides, however, an interesting potential insight into history and the history of GCA.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Do you think we live in an age of "political correctness"?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2005, 04:31:43 PM »
Quote
My other point was to show that words and ideas used in a former time as this quote seems to indicate were not so politically or perhaps even racially charged. -TEPaul

Tom,
This may be so but we are not, hopefully, as unconcious today as they were at that time in history. I can't see how anyone today could think that certain descriptions used in our past to identify people by race or religion were not for the most part meant in a derogatory fashion.

Jason,
Writing about the relationship between those parties doesn't need the insensitive language of that era to make it understandable, at least not in an architectural tome. A good writer should be able to convey the sense of that time without shocking the sensibilities of this one.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 04:36:19 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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