[Jason Topp]

Jim - I do not disagree with your points and your concern about undermining the architectural focus of a book with racially charged quotes is a good one.  The issue for the authors is - do they want to portray the warts and take the risk that the warts will overshadow the focus of the book or don't they.  I would respect either choice.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim & Jason,

You both touch on an issue that concerns anyone who writes for publication, but especially someone who is writing a history or biography. What is the proper way to quote a person?

For example, do you include rammatical errors or do you clean it up? How much do you include so that your opinions on it can reflect balance and accuracy?

Jim, you said, "I could see your point if you were writing social commentary but what purpose is served by including insensitive material in a book about golf architecture?"

Jason, you responded, "there is no doubt including such language would detract if the focus of the writing is purely on golf architecture.  I do think it is interesting, nonetheless to see how the norms of the day might have impacted golden age architects."

For me, I believe, and do this whenever I quote someone, that you MUST leave it exactly as was written. This way your integrity as a researcher remains intact. People might challenge your conclusions, but never the way you represent your proof.

Quoting someone, alive or dead, is never as easy as it seems.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I could see your point if you were writing social commentary but what purpose is served by including insensitive material in a book about golf architecture?"

JimK:

I did not say we were planning on putting insensitive material in the book on Flynn because I don't know that we've found any. I only said we planned on putting whatever was said and done back then in the book in an unvarnished or non-politically correct way. I don't know that "politically correct" only relates to the context of race or racism, obviously it doesn't just relate to that. We just want to portray history as it actually happened (and that includes quotations). The "Hazard" (Tillinghast) example in "The American Golfer" is only an example. It just happens to be about Blacks or what he and his time non-derogatorially called "negroes". If there is anyone on this website who actually thinks Tillinghast's use of the word "negroes" in that quotation in 1918 was intended by him to be derogatory then they would be entirely wrong about that, in my opinion, and frankly in need a history lesson! In 1918 the term "black" or "African American" had basically never been thought of much less coined. That's part of my point about attempting to look at history as it actually happened in its own time---and not transposed to our time.

[NAF]

Phil Young-

The firing of the foreman at Alpine you earlier referred to.. I don't think you mean HE Borden who was the constuction supervisor and Tillie's son in law...?

[Phil_the_Author]

NAF, You asked, "The firing of the foreman at Alpine you earlier referred to.. I don't think you mean HE Borden who was the constuction supervisor and Tillie's son in law...?"

Tilly's son-in-law, Harold Worden, worked for him for almost 4 years. I am not refering to him. This is a direct quote from Worden's 1941 resume (a copy of which the family supplied me):

"From 1928 to 1932 I was with A. W. Tillinghast as Golf Course engineer and constructor. The great Depression ended this."

The name of the Foreman that was fired by Tilly has been lost over time. It was his job to run the work crews. It was Worden's job to manage the job. For example, when they did Aldecress (known today as Alpine CC) Worden's engineering abilities were put to maximum use. They had massive demolition work because of the underlying granite on the site.

What you are probably unfamiliar with is that the Worden's lived in a house Tilly built for them directly behind his in Harrington Park. It was out of this house's window that young Barbara saw the crosses being burnt by the Klan. It appears that the man fired may have been behind the Klan protests. With this in mind, why would Worden allow them to protest on his own land?

Also, Tilly would never have fired his son-in-law and then had his replacement live with him for an entire winter literally 50 feet away (I've been to & seen both homes) from where he lived.

From the time frame of Barbara's memory, these protests probably took place while her dad still worked for Tilly, in the winter of 1930-31.

One of the rumors that has been spread is that Tilly treated his son-in-law brutally while on the job, causing him to die very young. That too is totally false, for he lived many more years. I will have to look up when he died and his age as I don't have his death certificate in front of me... it's buried away in a filing cabinet. I'll have to unearth it!   (sorry for the pun, I couldn't help myself!)  

[Garland Bayley]

...

Hopefully as civilization evolves we will have a better recognition of what is decent and behave accordingly.

After a few millieneum, everyone knows, or should know what's decent and how to behave by now.[/b][/color]

...

On one hand, attacks labelled as "political correctness attacks" are based on a demand for respect, which I believe has had overwhelmingly positive results on the whole.  There have been fundamental changes in the ideals and actions of American society over the last 40 years and I hope that change continues.

...

Sorry Pat, I think Jason has a better handle on it. Society has changed, and it will change. It is not possible to say how it will change, but things we take for granted as being acceptable today will not be acceptable in the future. Perhaps in the future it will become unacceptable to use the finite resources of mother earth to maintain such bastions of egotism as ANGC in the resource consumptive manner that they are now maintained. I can see it now, fast and firm with sheep and rabbits maintaining the course.

[TEPaul]

I like it Garland--your heart and mind is in the right place. With golf and architecture, style, taste, design, architectural concepts, perhaps some maintenance goals---those things will likely recycle and reoccur to some extent from the old days but society's continuous push ahead, you know what they say---you can never really go home again!  

[Jim Nugent]

...

Hopefully as civilization evolves we will have a better recognition of what is decent and behave accordingly.

After a few millieneum, everyone knows, or should know what's decent and how to behave by now.[/b][/color]

...

On one hand, attacks labelled as "political correctness attacks" are based on a demand for respect, which I believe has had overwhelmingly positive results on the whole.  There have been fundamental changes in the ideals and actions of American society over the last 40 years and I hope that change continues.

...

Sorry Pat, I think Jason has a better handle on it. Society has changed, and it will change. It is not possible to say how it will change, but things we take for granted as being acceptable today will not be acceptable in the future. Perhaps in the future it will become unacceptable to use the finite resources of mother earth to maintain such bastions of egotism as ANGC in the resource consumptive manner that they are now maintained. I can see it now, fast and firm with sheep and rabbits maintaining the course.

The fundamental changes Jason talks about will continue.  Afraid I take the opposite view of the direction they are going in, though.  

Also think mother earth will do just fine -- so long as people have relative freedom to choose how they use their resources.  Bastions such as ANGC will remain in place, if its members have the wealth and will to keep it.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Ali G now faces the collective wrath of Kazahkstan, and he's one of thre funniest guys in the world.

It's over - you can hardly get away with a sense of humor anymore without someone getting offended.

Brad Klein! Ohmygawdinheaven! To read that utterance from the busy fingers of a lifelong, card-carrying member of Academia makes me snort with laughter.

We had an interesting juxtaposition (today's pedantic vocabulary word) at dinner the other night at Casa de Redhead/Dicknozian.

At one seat, a 49 year-old, female Special Education teacher, a vocal and staunch conservative, swooning over a confirmed liberal in the Houston Oil & Gas business.

Across the table, a famous writer (liberal) who runs an even more famous golf design firm, talking to a Phd. college professor (staunch conservative) with a degree in Childhood Music Education.

At the other end, an Ivy League, Wharton Educated (Univ. Penn) CFO and his wife (VP Fed EX), both liberals, talking to a potato grower (and Reverend on the pulpit for 45 years) who calls himself a "ConLiberal."

Throw in a precocious 13 year-old and Libertarian kook (moi') and you see the beauty of the modern era.

Where else could you bring together such an ecclectic collection of disparate people, all holding contrary views to the majority of their *demographic* and having a grand old time over a gourmet meal cooked by the Redhead.

TE: Political correctness (in MNSHO) is usually complete nonsense. A pseudo-intellectual, newspeak canard which empty-headed fools dream up and then give credence to concepts like Ebonics.

Yet, if you listen closely to this collection - and I did - (the no-vino wagon will do that to you) everybody sort of met in the middle.

That is because, if you put aside all the shrill dogma, most thinking people - regardless of what side of the aisle they root for - share similar opinions.

It was almost like watching the great pendulum move in smaller and smaller swings. Common sense always wins in the end.

The trick is getting all the smart people to listen to each other.

I promise you. This too shall pass. I watched it before my eyes.      

[ForkaB]

Cheeso, Gibster!

You're going all soft and mushy on us!  I think I better go downtown and see if the bears are coming out of the woods to use the public toilets.......

Brians

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