Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay

[Tommy_Naccarato]

For what its worth, the person bidding on this item on EBAY, "apentony" is none other then the infamous rpurd, klangone, kfry and many other aliases used during his time on Golf Club Atlas.

In other words, the person who posted it is a fake, just like the character(s) who have posted before under those names. Maybe one of you guys might want to inform the seller to this fact.

[Peter_Herreid]

Tom--

I believe that is how it appears when the high bidder has put in a large "autobid" or "maximum bid".  Subsequent lower bids that push the "autobid" higher will show up as multiple bids in succession, while the "autobid" continues to show up on top...

Agree, though, most savvy eBayers don't bid up like this in the middle of the auction....

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

If a bidder has a substantially higher bid, his maximum bid isn't shown.  The bid shown is only the minimum increment above the previous bid.  If others bid below his maximum, his bid is automatically upped and the lower bids bounced.  So he isn't really multiple bidding its just others are exposing his higher maximum bid.  

It still makes no sense that bidding is this hot this early.  Good for the owner though.  

[Robert Thompson]

If I were a reputable seller with an item this pricey, I'd never agree to allow someone with any negatives in the past year bid on it, let alone someone who didn't pay on the only item they bid on.

[Gene Greco]

Robert:

   How do you prevent someone from bidding on your Ebay item?

[Peter Galea]

Robert:

   How do you prevent someone from bidding on your Ebay item?

In the item description you can limit who can bid. Even someone with a low number of positives can be restricted. The seller can remove bids.

[TEPaul]

"The seller can remove bids."

Pete;

Really? The seller can actually remove bids (or bidders) or do you just mean the seller can do that by removing his offer (the auction item) from the auction? I thought in an auction process the one who could remove bids (or bidders) was the auctioneer, not the seller. Otherwise why would anyone (seller or buyer) seek out a reputable auctioneer vs one who may not be that way?

[wsmorrison]

I think the item is authentic and very important.  It may be attracting the participation of some unsavory characters but in my opinion the item and the seller are legitimate.  From my dealings with the seller, I believe he is acting in a reputable manner despite not knowing George Crump from Harry Crump.

[Peter Galea]

"The seller can remove bids."

Pete;

Really? The seller can actually remove bids (or bidders) or do you just mean the seller can do that by removing his offer (the auction item) from the auction? I thought in an auction process the one who could remove bids (or bidders) was the auctioneer, not the seller. Otherwise why would anyone (seller or buyer) seek out a reputable auctioneer vs one who may not be that way?

Yes, the seller can cancel bids. The seller must have a "valid" reason.
The value of eBay (as an auctioneer) is predicated on continued transactions and the weight given to the feedback system. Less than 100% positive feedback is undesirable as a buyer or seller.

[Robert Thompson]

It appears to me that an individual has created an alias and has placed an unusual top amount on this item. Who knows exactly what it is worth? That said, if the top bidder has a bid of $12,000 on it, for example, someone will have to bid more than that to get it. If someone is doing this as a lark, then the auction will probably have to be done again. I wouldn't advise anyone to get involved in this now.
That said, I saw this auction well before anyone on this forum noticed it. I think it is legitimate and significant. But I think he'd have been better just approaching the club and determining their interest. He might have gotten $10K without the fuss of eBay.

[TEPaul]

Is this item the real thing? I'd say definitely. It's the real item from Colt that he probably sent over from England a couple of months after he left PVGC after spending his one and only week there. I'd also bet anyone the eventual selling price on Ebay this item is simply a whole course (non-topo) rendering (about 3'x4') of Colt's booklet of the individual page hole by hole drawings that PVGC has had for 92 years (since 1913). Matter of fact double the eventual selling price on Ebay of my bet to anyone. Oh what the hell triple the selling price on Ebay of the bet. Screw it, I'll even give you 2 to 1 odds. Any takers?  

[Craig_Rokke]

I've been a frequent E bay-user for several years, and have
yet to bid on an item with as many bids as this item already has. Don't worry about "fake bids" or guys with negative feedback. Those guys will be left in the dust as the price for this seemingly authentic (the clearer photos available from the seller are very convincing) piece soars above 5 figures.
Happy bidding!
 

[LOberman]

The seller added the following information to his listing.  


I met with a historian this morning that has close ties with Pinevalley, He has asured me that the print is infact the real deal! The print is by H.S. Cult and is writen in Blue indian ink on coated linen. The print shows the creative process and development of the original layout of the cource. The hole placements on this map are very similar to actual way the cource is today, showing Colts infulence on Crumps final layout. I am in contact with this historian, so if I can not answer your question, I can get the right answer from him. happy bidding!

[JSlonis]

The guys bidding for this must have NO idea how these ebay auctions work, or are trying to pump the price of this item up for some reason.  

WHY would they continue to bid this item up with so much time left?  It just doesn't make any sense.  

A noted historian he says....hmmmm, where is one TEPaul today?

[Jason Mandel]

So TOM,

What bar did you hunt him down at

So was it Wayne or Tom, or both???

Jason

[wsmorrison]

I guess I'm the historian he is referring to.  I met with the owner of the routing map this morning and carefully studied it.  Tom Paul and I discussed the implications of the piece.  It is authentic.  It is India Ink on coated linen.  There's some mold/fungus and some staining with a couple of holes in it but it is well preserved.  I think it is a very important piece of historical documentation that adds a bit to the understanding of the design process of Pine Valley.  

There are some notable discrepencies in the routing and holes as they are on the ground today.  I pointed them out one-by-one to the owner.  I've not seen the Colt booklet, but Tom says the holes are very similar with less detail than the individual hole drawings.  What this clearly shows is the spatial relationship between the holes that could not be determined from the individual hole drawings.  I would like to see Pine Valley GC obtain this document but they'll have to do it through the bidding process, that is if the auction concludes with a transaction.

The owner of the map seems very honest and excited about his find.  It is like an Antiques Road Show story where he spotted it on a table at a flea market and purchased it for a song three years ago.  It sat near his TV for the past few years before he decided to put it on eBay.  He gets many emails per day about the item and about 20 or so warning him of the character that Tommy Naccarato mentioned.  

It was a pleasure to meet the fellow and handle the document.  
By the way, Colt mistakenly labled both his 12th and 13th holes as 13.  It had some handwriting on the back.  If someone is familiar with Colt's handwriting I can pass along a reasonable copy that I made.  The back of the map also had #3 on each of the four corners.

It should be interesting to see how the auction plays out.  

[Marty Bonnar]

Wayne,
are you absolutely sure that the lines are India Ink and not 'Blueprint'/Dyeline/Diazo?
I ask because the implication could be that, if they are Ink, then they have to be 'hand-drawn' and THAT makes this object 'an original', whereas, if they are Blueprint then the object is a 'copy', albeit one of value.
Blueprints can be made on linen as well as on paper, so the substrate is not an issue.
'#3' suggests either a copy number or perhaps an iteration. The hand-written extras are intiguing to say the least...

FBD.

[Paul_Turner]

Wayne

I have quite a lot of Colt's writing.

I thought there must have been something wrong with the numbering.  The small scans that the owner has, show the "13th" green drawn exactly like the "12th" on the blue/red map in the clubhouse.  And I couldn't image an extra hole squeezed in somewhere between 9 and "13" since 8 and 9 are shown in part and in the correct place.

I guess this plan is almost almost identical to the blue lines drawn on the plan in the clubhouse but without contours and with trees drawn, ponds(?)

[wsmorrison]

Martin,

I may be mistaken because I've only seen India ink on linen.  The ink was blue but come to think of it, I didn't see any slight smudges in the ink but it did look hand-drawn and there are some irregularities such as I've seen on other drawings such as Flynn.  I didn't realize the ammonia process (I think that was the copying technique back then--at least I recall Andy Mutch saying so) could reproduce on linen.  So you may be right that it is a copy rather than inked.  But I sure got the impression it was ink.  There's a technique to see if its ink because it can be erased on linen.  I forget what it is.  More than likely Colt didn't do the inking anyway, right?  Flynn didn't do his inking, he drew in pencil and W.S. Nicholls inked the drawings.

Paul,

I copied in my own hand the handwriting on the back of the map.  I'll scan it and send it to you and see what you think.  Did Colt make distinctive capital Gs?  The handwriting was in brown ink.  Before we saw the map, Tom and I couldn't figure out how the routing would've worked with an extra hole between 9 and 12.  Have you seen mistakes like that before?  I've seen Flynn mis-label a hole once.

[BCrosby]

Is the existence of this drawing or its contents a surprise to anyone?

Bob

[wsmorrison]

Bob,

Maybe where it was found and how it came to be offered was a bit of a surprise.  The contents didn't seem to surprise Tom Paul that much.

Happy Thanksgiving to the entire Crosby clan!  The Morrisons are coming down next year to visit you and see the new Aquarium.  My youngest son John is really excited....about the aquarium that is  

[RE Blanks]

Do the good people from Pine Valley not want this item?  It seems to me they would be interested and would want to have this in their possession.  

[Voytek Wilczak]

I've been following this story (and bidding) with great interest. Unfortunately I am going away tomorrow where I won't have access to the 'net - please post the winning bid and whether PVGC bought this item - I'll check this thread on Sunday!

[T_MacWood]

It sounds like this is the master plan that accompanied Colt's booklet...the question is how did the two become separated? I wonder if it was among his personal idems at Merchantville.

[Craig_Rokke]

I've been following this story (and bidding) with great interest. Unfortunately I am going away tomorrow where I won't have access to the 'net - please post the winning bid and whether PVGC bought this item - I'll check this thread on Sunday!

Voytek-
If you bid on the print, you'll be able to check out the
auction results in your "My Ebay" section. I doubt that it will be easy to determine if the winning bidder is affiliated with PVGC, though.

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