Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay

[TEPaul]

"I did not claim Crump was the average American golfer or not aware of Colt; I'm simply saying your thought that Colt was not hired to give the project legitimacy or publicity or investors does not make sense. He hired Colt because he needed help in laying out the course. Colt happened to be in the country and he was also the best golf architect in the world."

Tom MacW:

Then why did you say Colt was not well known to the average American golfer? We're talking about Crump and Colt and PVGC here not the average American golfer. I never said Colt was not hired to give the project legitimacy or publicity. I said that may've been a reason he was hired. It certainly appeared people like Crump and Carr didn't think he was any slouch. Tom, in all seriousness, you have no earthly idea why Crump hired Harry Colt, and either do I, we can only guess but it seems logical that it may've had something to do with Crump's visit to the heathlands in 1910 with Baker. Colt was the best architect in the world was he? I'm sure in 1913 you probably could've gotten a fairly good argument on that. Some from his time apparently felt he wasn't the best architect of the heathland architects.

Regardless of all that the interesting thing about PVGC is what Crump did following Colt's visit and I certainly do know he didn't follow Colt's plan in detail and I have a feeling this auction item is going to once again prove that as the Colt hole by hole booklet did which I feel this auction item is merely Colt's whole course rendering of.  

[Peter Galea]

It kills me to see all the multiple bidders with 4 and a half days left.
Hey, you're all golfers, you can't win the thing today, but you sure can bid yourself out of it.
If anyone wants some ePay tips, IM me.
I may not be the greatest, but I do know how the system works.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Colt was regarded as the best architect in Britain in 1913; that's almost indisputable.   He got by far the most work, including most importantly, the 1913-14 commission for the 4th course at St Andrews.  And since British architecture was generally ahead of American in 1913...

Don't go dragging out that Darwin quote on Fowler and reading a lot into it.

[T_MacWood]

"I never said Colt was not hired to give the project legitimacy or publicity. I said that may've been a reason he was hired. It certainly appeared people like Crump and Carr didn't think he was any slouch."

TE
I mistakenly inserted a 'not' in my post. I understand that you feel it may have been the reason he was hired.

Colt was not hired as a publicity stunt. The project had attracted plenty of publicity prior to Colt. Colt was not hired to drum up investors. Crump had a boat load of investors and he had very deep pockets, and no hesitation to spend his own money. Colt was not hired for his name, he was hired for his talent.

For every positive Darwin quote on Fowler, you can find five regarding Colt. He was The Man in British architectural circles in 1913.

Colt was not well known to American's because American golf magazines (American Golfer) at the time--prior to 1913--did not spend a lot of time covering the developments in British golf architecture.

I don't understand why Crump and Colt can not both be given their due.  

[ForkaB]

Rich
I know for fact that Percy Goodale was well aware of both Macdonald and Travis, and most likely vice versa.

Tom

I'd be very interested in your source for that fact, if only for genalogical purposes.

Thanks in advance.

[BCrosby]

This is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be acquired by a library or archive where it can be cared for and made available for research. It will be a shame if it ends up in the hands of a private collector.

I hope someone will alert PVGC, the USGA or some other organization willing to give it a home. (TEP?) They need to win this auction. This is too important an item to be hidden away in a safety deposit box for the next twenty years.

Bob

[Robert Thompson]

for all those that think Barney is some sort of world class jerkoff on the internet, take a look at his ebay feedback:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=spooooon&iid=8725444575

Barney, will you please make a new year's resolution to unresolve whatever prior resolution has kept you from posting here for whatever length of time it's been??  

Just because he actually follows through with his eBay purchases and sales doesn't make him any less of a nuisance on this site.

[Steve Lapper]

for all those that think Barney is some sort of world class jerkoff on the internet, take a look at his ebay feedback:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=spooooon&iid=8725444575



Barney, will you please make a new year's resolution to unresolve whatever prior resolution has kept you from posting here for whatever length of time it's been??  

Just because he actually follows through with his eBay purchases and sales doesn't make him any less of a nuisance on this site.

Touche'

You might consider adding annoyance and  intentionally inflammatory and provider of little value. While the site may not be as charming and informative as in it's past, little of that could ever be reacquired by bringing him back.

Good for him that he honors his commercial transactions, that's all eBay feedback indicates.

[TEPaul]

"I don't understand why Crump and Colt can not both be given their due."

Tom MacW

Obviously you don't because you seem to still be stuck on some scenario that Crump has been unfactually glorified at Colt's expense but their exact due is precisely what they both are going to be given. Almost precisely who did what and who was almost precisely responsible for what and when is almost totally known now. This subject of Colt's part and Crump's part (and the part of others, most particularly Hugh Alison) has just never been unraveled before but it almost is now.

Frankly, what many in the club have always felt about Colt's part in the design of PVGC is something obviously you've never understood and how could you have? Because so many have been aware of that Colt booklet that's always been in PVGC's archives many always thought Colt came in and both routed and designed the course and that Crump simply spent most all his time there overseeing construction and paying for most all the course. That is simply not the way it happened.

And then in the last ten years Jim Finegan made that mistake in the latest and most comprehensive history book about PVGC and its creation that Crump both routed and designed most all the course. The reason he made that mistake is simply because he mistakenly assumed that the date on that topo map hanging in the clubhouse meant that's when the design it shows was finished, and that date just happened to predate Colt's arrival of his one and only visit to PVGC.

Finegan did look carefully at Colt's booklet and the design of the holes in that booklet does show more differences than similarities, as he said in his history book. He is not wrong about that. I have a very strong feeling this auction item is going to completely confirm that.

And so the fact of what Crump did on the course and on the holes on his own and with others both before Colt arrived and after he left that created those differences from what Colt did is the truth about the creation of PVGC.

And so both Colt and Crump are going to be given their due exactly as they deserve it. All the material that has been there but never completely or correctly looked at has been correctly looked at now. Colt will get less credit for what he did than he has been given credit for from those at the club  who previously thought he both routed and designed the course and Colt will get far more credit than Finegan gave him for the routing of the course. As to what holes Colt was more responsible for than Crump and vice versa, it seems that those who were at PVGC and knew Crump and the course while it was being constructed got it pretty accurate in their books---such as George Thomas who was a member and was there then. What they did not explain in that vein has been explained now.

[john_stiles]

If you are serious on bidding, esnipe better be part of your plans to get this item, as well as some possible group effort.

[John_Cullum]

You might consider adding annoyance and  intentionally inflammatory and provider of little value. While the site may not be as charming and informative as in it's past....

Fascinating.

[T_MacWood]

Almost precisely who did what and who was almost precisely responsible for what and when is almost totally known now.

TE
While I find the excercise--of trying to figure out who did what and when--interesting, its all speculation, at best an educated guess.

The nature and frequency of Crump and Colt's correspondences remains a mystery (and becasue of that we may never know precisely what happened)...as does how much imput (if any) friends and colleagues may have given. IMO both Crump and Colt deserve enormous credit...trying to assign more credit to one over the other is a crap shoot.

[wsmorrison]

I think the truth of that depends upon the archival materials on hand and the process with which one uses to analyze the materials.  In both cases I think the Pine Valley architectural history can be determined with a high degree of confidence.  If you're talking about 100% certainty, then that is probably true.  But it can be reconstructed in a meaningful and worthwhile manner.

[JSlonis]

I've tried to contact someone at PVGC to let them know of this auction, and also to see if the club has any interest in keeping this document for themselves from a historical perspective.

I realize that anyone is entitled to bid for this, but from my view, I would like to see this item kept within the club.

[Paul_Turner]

Ironically, if it is bought by the club then it may as well be in a safety deposit box  

[ChipOat]

John Stiles is correct - esnipe will be mandatory to win this thing.

Besides the posters on this thread, the number of lurkers who have followed this and will be bidding is probably 10X greater than most of us would guess.

[JSlonis]

I can tell you that PVGC is aware of this item.

[TEPaul]

"TE
While I find the excercise--of trying to figure out who did what and when--interesting, its all speculation, at best an educated guess."

Tom MacW:

Without question that remark is definitely not true. There're a number of things not know, for sure, and they probably never will be known for obviously reasons but what is known now about some of the particulars of Colt's part in the creation of PVGC and the particulars of Crump's part in creation of PVGC, and the particulars of the part of others in the creation of PVGC is so much better known now than it ever has been or even was just a few years ago. The reasons for that are also obvious----eg a lot more really in-depth research has been given to the entire subject than ever was before. This was probably bound to happen one day and so now it has.

"...trying to assign more credit to one over the other is a crap shoot."

Tom, obviosuly you feel this is some kind of competition between Crump and Colt or some kind of competition between some of us who're researching their contributions to the creation of PVGC. It's not a matter of assigning more credit to one over the other, it's merely an attempt to determine as precisely as can be known who did what and when. And that's what we are doing, or that's what I'm trying to do. I'm never all that sure what it is you're trying to do.    

[John_Cullum]

I can tell you that PVGC is aware of this item.

The question is, do they care?

[TEPaul]

"I've tried to contact someone at PVGC to let them know of this auction,"

Jamie:

Believe me they know about this Ebay auction (look at the first bid). I spoke to them at the beginning of the weekend (I think it was). Now they'd like more information on this item, and I see no reason why they shouldn't have it or why any interested and informed bidder on PVGC and its creation shouldn't have it. A really good scan of it would be worthwhile for everyone so they could really see the details of this item on Ebay. Perhaps this seller doesn't know how or just can't do that (it is pretty big) but he should. Maybe he thinks he has something to lose if he does that. I don't think he should feel that way. There's probably little question this item is the real thing---I think it's basically a rendering by Colt in July 1913 of the entire course. I know this item is not a topo rendering and I know it's not on the topo survey map (another copy of it) Crump and Colt used in May/June 1913 which hangs on the wall in the clubhouse. I think this item is a whole course rendering by Colt of the holes in Colt's booklet which has always been at PVGC. If that's what it is its research value isn't what it would be if it was quite different in some way from that hole by hole Colt booklet. But nevertheless this item should have real interest and value to PVGC and I do hope that's where it ends up.

One such as I, however, needs to ask why this item has not always been in the PVGC archives (as the booklet happens to have been). It just makes me wonder that if this whole course rendering and routing and design scheme by Harry Colt in July of 1913 (this auction item) was so important to George Crrump and to the creation of PVGC for the ensuing years from 1913 to 1918 (when Crump died) then what in the world was it doing in a flea market in Berlin NJ recently and in an auction on Ebay in 2005?  

[Jason Mandel]

Guys,

The thing that worries me is that the current bidder could very well be a fake bidder.  It seems he has bid quite a large amount, seeing that his original bid has already been upped by over $500 without losing the top bid.  His "feedback is negative  1, and if you read the feedback he never payed for the 1 item he won.

Jason

[Paul_Turner]

Jason

I was thinking the same, it's fishy

[JSlonis]

I can tell you that PVGC is aware of this item.

The question is, do they care?

Absolutely!

[JSlonis]

Guys,

The thing that worries me is that the current bidder could very well be a fake bidder.  It seems he has bid quite a large amount, seeing that his original bid has already been upped by over $500 without losing the top bid.  His "feedback is negative  1, and if you read the feedback he never payed for the 1 item he won.

Jason

That's exactly what I thought.  In fact, I even sent a couple of the bidders an ebay email asking them why in the heck they would continue to "BID UP" the item so much when the auction has more than 3 days to go.  For anyone that knows how ebay works, it simply makes no sense.  

I've got a feeling that there is someone that is trying to artificially inflate the price of this item.

The one guy increased his bid 8 times every 30 seconds for a total of a $400 increase.  What the....?  SOMETHING'S AMISS!

[T_MacWood]

I don't know anything about Ebay, but why would a bidder bid against his own top bid two or three or ten consecutive times....three day before the end of the bidding?