[Mike_Sweeney]

Is the existence of this drawing or its contents a surprise to anyone?

Bob

Bob,

I think George Bahto has told the story of how he found many historical pieces from "Swede" at North Sea Towing and Radiator in Southampton. I happen to know Swede as he towed my car twice, and trust me the last place in the world that you would expect to have National stuff is that garage. I think someone in Swede's family was a Greenskeeper at National.

It would, to me, also be interesting to know where this map has been since it left Colt's hand. Was it in Clementon Towing and Radiator for 80+ years or was it bouncing around flea markets in South Jersey for years?

It is a case study for the power of the Internet and one thing is for sure - in order to own this, you will need to be bidding during the last minute on Friday or have a high bid on one of the automatic services.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Does the fellow at the towing and radiator service plan on donating or selling the materials to NGLA?  That is where they obviously belong.  Did George return them?  If so, I hope they know how to preserve the materials until they hopefully end up in their true home across the street from the greatest golf course in the world  

eBay bid on the PVGC routing map up to $3000 with lots of time to go.  Anybody want to guess the closing price?  I'll say $12500.

[TEPaul]

Wayne and Mike:

Swede probably owns the towing and radiator shop in Southampton and he has plenty of NGLA historic stuff right there in his office. But it's a guy who works in the shop Tereski (I forgot his first name) who apparently has had most of the historical material from NGLA and he said it's in his house. Tereski is the grandson of Macdonald's greenkeeper at NGLA.

I found out about Swede and Tereski when I was out there plaing in the National Singles tournament. I had a bye on Friday (the Friday after the Open) so I went over to Shinnecock. I was walking around Shinnecock with Mark Michaud and another local superintendent (who'd helped out in the Open) who were looking at the greens and anthracnose etc discussing what the remedial process was and would be. As we were out around the 3rd green and talking about some historical stuff to do with Shinnecock, this other super mentioned Swede, the towing and radiator shop and all the NGAL material. I was pretty surprised, to say the least.

So I went to the shop and sat down and talked to Swede and Tereski for about 2-3 hours about NGLA, Shinnecock and everything they knew that'd transpired on those courses as far back as they could remember. At first Swede was a bit guarded or even suspicious of me but he told me a lot of the guys in the town caddied at NGLA and Shinnecock, but he and Tereski really loved NGLA. Swede started telling me about the characters he caddied for and he started raving about one guy in particular who he said was the greatest guy he ever knew there. It just so happened that guy was a friend and constant playing partner of my father and I told Swede;

"It's funny you say you think that guy was the greatest guy you ever knew around NGLA because in my opinion he was about the biggest asshole I can remember."

That's when Swede really started to trust me and he even called up an old guy who actually caddied at Shinnecock on the old Macdonald/Raynor course and the new Flynn one and that guy came down and talked to me for an hour or so. Unfortunately he didn't remember enough interesting architectural details to be helpful.

Tereski told me years ago he'd tried to offer all this stuff to NGLA but they weren't interested. He told me at the end of his life Macdonald had become really unpopular at NGLA and in an effective way they basically pushed him out of the club. He told me since his grandfather was considered Macdonald's greenskeeper as soon as Macdonald died the club fired his grandfarther and gave him a ton of stuff from the club to do with Macdonald and the creation of the course that he didn't already have.

And so that's how all that historic NGLA material came to end up around that towing and radiator shop but mostly at Tereski's house. Towards the end I asked those two if they knew George Bahto and they said Oh yes he'd been there and looked over everything. Like a lot of this old material that's been God knows where over the decades and is starting to resurface because real interest in it has suddenly resurged gets down to a matter of ownership. If it's valuable obviously people like Swede and Tereski want to be a part of that. It's probably not simple to establish ownership of material like this as it gets passed around these days for whatever reason but I do agree this kind of material hopefully can get back to those clubs that it's about and where it probably belongs.

It's isn't easy obviously, at least in the case of that NGLA material. Decades ago they gave it away and when it was offered to them perhaps in the last couple of decades they didn't seem to care enough to take it back. But one thing I do know, they're interested in it now and they most certainly would take it, probably buy it, whatever.

It's not easy when this material resurfaces to figure out what should be done with it first or last. But I think we do know that in a legal sense at least possession is a large part of the ownership of it and what happens to it. I doubt anyone could possibly figure out where this Colt rendering has been for the last 92 years. Looking at it shows it has those common fold lines on it which are so common on old course plans, topos etc. Almost always that means way back when the thing was constantly in and out of the pockets of people who had something to do with the creation of the golf course. In the case of this auction item it may've ended up in the pocket of someone working on the course who lived in Clementon (many people working on the course in the beginning obviously lived in Clementon) and he took it home and it may never have left his house until someone cleared it out (maybe decades later) and just sent this item to a flea market in nearby Berlin, NJ.

One thing is certain about this Colt rendering and that is that George Crump did not work on it. At least he never worked with it to the extent he worked on the topo map hanging in the clubhouse which has a title on it saying "Property of George Crump". The reason I say that is there's not a single mark on this item from Crump (no red lines).

All Crump's red line design notations and alterations are on the topo map in the clubhouse. From understanding the time-line of what got done and when it looks to me like Crump worked with that topo map of his definitely into the middle of 1915 and perhaps even as late at 1917. The red lines all over it combined with other documentary material tell that story. Both the blue lines of Colt and the red lines of Crump on that topo map in the clubhouse really tell a story, you just need other material along the history and time-line of PVGC's creation to know how to read it correctly.

Bob Crosby asked if there were any surprises on this auction item for anyone. I sure can't speak for anyone other than myself but there were no surprises at all for me. What it did for me is confirm where parts of Colt's #2, #7, #12, #15 were and where his holes #13 and #14 were. In that way they're no different from his booklet, altough the booklet has a lot of text on each hole drawing and this whole course rendering has none of that. This item also confirms that Colt apparently did little to nothing on green design and this item also confirms the differences in bunkering between Colt's schemes and what was created or built by Crump (and his other collaborators).
 

[john_stiles]

The bidding is a bit odd with some experienced bidders (eg, 406 bids) stepping in at this early stage.

My guess is that it wanders up to about $5k and then sells for something around $10k.  Just depends on those pesky last second 'service' bids and which ones get through.  

It will be interesting to see how the 'obviously' many lurkers bid at the last second.  For me,  this is a bit like a high stakes poker game or watching a car wreck.

Unless the GCA gurus suddenly find fault with the item, it should go for a premium.  It is a one of a kind.

$10k is a drop in bucket for the course. For $10k, you can probably only cut & dispose of less than 10 large trees & stumps.

[Paul_Turner]

I don't think Colt ever drew plans for green contours.  Or at least I've never seen any.  From reading correspondance with other clubs, his method was to stake the greens out and the work from there.

[BCrosby]

There are some serious buyers looking at this. As they should. It will go for $20K plus. It would be a steal if you could get it for anything less. Unlike books, this is truly one of a kind. Nothing like it will come around again in our lifetime.

Bob

 

[BCrosby]

TEP/Paul/TomMac -

If I understand correctly, this drawing does not change anything in the great attribution debate about PVGC?

Bob

[JSlonis]

From the description of the item and his follow up, I would take it that the owner of this item doesn't even play golf or know much about it at all.  There are some odd errors in the write up.

Wayne,
Did the owner say how he found this item at the Berlin Market, and as a nongolfer, why did it catch his attention in the first place?

[wsmorrison]

Jamie,

The fellow does not play golf.  He's probably in his late 20s.  He did drive down E. Atlantic Avenue to see the entrance but that's as close as he's been to PV.  

He was walking through the Berlin market as he is wont to do since he seems to trade on eBay a fair amount.  He was walking past a table and noticed a folded map and it caught his eye.  He was mostly attracted to its very old appearance and the 1913 date.  The guy who sold it had even less of a clue as he never heard of the golf course before and described it as "a map of some golf course."  Well the current owner knew enough to know it was old and that it was a recognized course.  He purchased it for a ridiculously low price and held onto it for three years.  He decided to put it up for auction with a pretty low reserve since he didn't really know what it would go for.  He's thrilled with the results to date and I think he'll be blown away at the end of the bidding.

Yes, he does make a number of repeated spelling mistakes.  Maybe he doesn't type well or is a bit careless.  Whatever, he seems like a really nice and sincere guy who would like to see it at Pine Valley but has the integrity to keep the item on the market for legitimate bidders.  He has been a bit put off by suspicious bids and has been getting a lot of email pointing fingers at some suspicious types.

This thing is unique and worth a lot!  I just hope it ends up in a proper place at some point.  If a collector obtains it, I guess it will stay in the circle of collectors for a while.  Perhaps it will eventually find its place at Pine Valley.  If I were the president of PVGC I'd assess all thousand members $20 each and buy it!

[Jim Franklin]

A friend of mine found a "sign in" book from one of the PV cabins with Bobby Jones, Walter Travis, Walter Hagen, and other well known people, not just golfers, and bought it at a garage sale. He offered it to PV and they did not want it. He showed it to me and it was pretty frickin' cool. I was surprised that PV didn't want it for their archives.

[Dan Kelly]

As the greenest imaginable eBayer (I've bought two golf clubs), I wonder what to make of this bidding history. Why are these guys (including that spoooooooooooooon fellow) apparently bidding against themselves?


 codjunkmail ( 23)  US $3,000.00 Nov-22-05 17:18:40 PST  
 
 jpkp14 ( 406)  US $2,950.00 Nov-22-05 17:11:42 PST  
 
 apentony1222 ( -1 )  US $2,850.00 Nov-22-05 13:27:57 PST  
 
 ffppaa ( 2 )  US $2,750.00 Nov-22-05 11:35:15 PST  
 
 apentony1222 ( -1 )  US $2,700.00 Nov-22-05 13:27:47 PST  
 
 apentony1222 ( -1 )  US $2,600.00 Nov-22-05 13:27:28 PST  
 
 apentony1222 ( -1 )  US $2,500.00 Nov-21-05 06:36:50 PST  
 
 ffppaa ( 2 )  US $2,200.00 Nov-21-05 16:15:18 PST  
 
 ffppaa ( 2 )  US $2,050.00 Nov-21-05 16:15:03 PST  
 
 ffppaa ( 2 )  US $2,000.00 Nov-21-05 16:14:47 PST  
 
 ffppaa ( 2 )  US $1,750.00 Nov-21-05 16:14:33 PST  
 
 ffppaa ( 2 )  US $1,700.00 Nov-21-05 16:14:04 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,650.00 Nov-21-05 12:25:36 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,600.00 Nov-21-05 12:24:57 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,550.00 Nov-21-05 12:23:28 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,500.00 Nov-21-05 12:22:42 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,450.00 Nov-21-05 12:12:55 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,400.00 Nov-21-05 12:12:39 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,350.00 Nov-21-05 12:10:33 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,300.00 Nov-21-05 12:09:56 PST  
 
 pmeehan69 ( 5 )  US $1,250.00 Nov-21-05 12:09:27 PST  
 
 laogolf ( 144)  US $1,185.00 Nov-21-05 10:41:13 PST  
 
 laogolf ( 144)  US $1,085.00 Nov-21-05 10:40:04 PST  
 
 spooooon ( 57)  US $1,027.77 Nov-21-05 04:46:38 PST  
 
 codjunkmail ( 23)  US $1,000.00 Nov-20-05 12:45:42 PST  
 
 spooooon ( 57)  US $997.77 Nov-21-05 04:45:16 PST  
 
 spooooon ( 57)  US $927.77 Nov-20-05 18:26:37 PST  

[Jason Mandel]

Dan,

No one is bidding against themselves.  When they put a bid in, they put in the highest amount they will go to.  However, the bid that is shown is just a few dollars more than the previous high bid.  When it looks like people are bidding against themsleves, all it really means is others are bidding in between the number that the high bidder currently bid, and the high bidder's maximum price.

IE.  The current high bid is 2,000.  I want to bid, and bid a total of $3000.  However, Ebay, being fair, will only list my bid as $2005 dollars or something like that, as to not force me to overpay, but it will automatically bump my bid up if someone else bids inbetween and 2 and 3K.

Hope this helps.
Happy bidding

Jason

[JSlonis]

Dan,

When you place a bid on an item, you place it for just above the already highest bid, but you can also place a "maximum" bid as well.  So if someone comes along and places a higher bid than yours, ebay will continue to post your bid up to the maximum level that you selected.  After that, you'll need to place a new bid if you wish.  That is the reason you see one person with several bids in a row.

Sorry...I don't mean to double up the answer, I didn't see Jason's response.

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks, gentlemen. Why aren't those interim bids listed?

[Jerry Kluger]

My experience with Ebay has mostly been with collectible cars and it has been common for sellers to try and give the appearance that they are not dealers by misspelling words.  In fact, they know exactly what they are doing.  The problem with Ebay is that you never know if the seller is bidding against you and they can remove the listing if they so choose. Let me ask you this, would the item not be worth more if it were authenticated as real?  This is not chump change and while it could certainly be genuine, there is no guarantee.

[Jason Mandel]

What would one have to do to have this authenticated?  I would think the new owner would want to have this item insured, and if so, would it have to be authenticated first?  I can't imagine giving 10-20K on something I "think" to be real.

Jason

[T_MacWood]

TEP/Paul/TomMac -

If I understand correctly, this drawing does not change anything in the great attribution debate about PVGC?

Bob

I don't think it changes anything, although its difficult to say for certain when one hasn't seen the Crump booklet or this plan (TE is the only person who has studied the booklet). It makes perfect sense that this plan matches that booklet.

Since the booklet is locked away, it would be nice if this plan or at least a good image of it were in the public domain. I believe the club should rightfully own this drawing, but I hope we at least get to see and study an image of Colt's early plan.

For me the most interesting aspect is the date of this plan; Colt obviously worked on this back in England. Which brings up the question, what was the nature and frequency of Crump and Colt's correspondence after this plan was created.

[Mike Hendren]

Please indulge a side-bar.  I recall years ago my dad receiving a box of "stuff."  In it was a newspaper that included an article involving The Country Club.  He didn't think twice about finding their address and forwarding it to them.  I recall he received a nice note back from the club.  

Neither he nor I remember the subject of the article, but I like to think it involved Frances Quimet!

My dad is a common man who set a high bar.

Mike

[JSlonis]

Thanks, gentlemen. Why aren't those interim bids listed?

Because if an interim bid is placed by someone(Bidder "A") and another bidder(Bidder "B") has already put in a higher amount as their maximum level, ebay will just automatically bid up to "Bidder B's" preset maximum.   Bidder "A's" bid will only show up if he bids higher than the maximum bid of Bidder "B".  Simple enough!

[JESII]

Please indulge a side-bar.  I recall years ago my dad receiving a box of "stuff."  In it was a newspaper that included an article involving The Country Club.  He didn't think twice about finding their address and forwarding it to them.  I recall he received a nice note back from the club.  

Neither he nor I remember the subject of the article, but I like to think it involved Frances Quimet!

My dad is a common man who set a high bar.

Mike

Agreed about your father.
Unfortunately, times have changed.

[henrye]

This item also confirms that Colt apparently did little to nothing on green design and this item also confirms the differences in bunkering between Colt's schemes and what was created or built by Crump (and his other collaborators).
 

How does this document confirm that?  Is it not possible that there may be other Colt documents that have never been recovered or were destroyed?  Is this Colt's final document?

In the case of this auction item it may've ended up in the pocket of someone working on the course who lived in Clementon  

Tom Paul are you actually suggesting that it's possible that someone who was working on the course may have been using a plan produced soley by Colt without any markings from Crump?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Henry,
Pure speculation on TE's part, so much that he reminds me of a Texas Land Baron. (Or is it Robber Baron?)  

One can only imagine the journey this drawing has made. It's value to Pine Valley should be priceless, regardless if it doesn't show anything new or unusual. Simply put, THE MAP BELONGS AT PINE VALLEY.

To me, the RIGHT thing to do is to pull it off of EBAY, and have someone reputable appraise it's true worth, then deal with the club from there. EBAY is NOT the place to be deciding what the map is worth. It doesn't belong in a private collection--it belongs at Pine Valley.

Hillbilly Hendren,
Sounds as if your Dad was a very good man. What happened to his Son?  

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

Why don't you tell that to this seller? That's what we trying to do and what PV tried to do.

HenryE;

Of course anything is possible. It's possible other things could pop up from Colt. It's possible that some voluminous diary of Crump's of everything he did on that course for six years could pop up somewhere too. I try to deal in what I know for a fact (what's basically corroborated) and what's most probable.

I have no idea if they were using this item of Colt's in the field in 1913, all I know is it has the exact same fold lines that other plans we've seen from other architects that were used in the field. The fold lines show the item fit into pockets. I did hundreds of hours of routing and I know mine have those same fold lines.

This item sure doesn't look to me like PVGC thought to put it under glass in 1913 for some reason to do with its eventual value. Clearly the working drawing in the creation of PVGC was the topo map hanging in the clubhouse, and that too has those same fold lines on it.

Maybe if Crump knew this thing would be worth many thousands of dollars on Ebay in 2005 he would've put it away carefully, and maybe he also would've carefully put away his own working topo map drawing but that obviously was not the way it went back in 1913, I guess. I guess what was on their minds back then were the little details of what they needed to do to build what turned out to be the #1 golf course in the world. And these types of items are what they used and what they notated on.  

Maybe Harry Colt could pull off the entire routing, the entire eventual design of the holes, the bunkers, the greens in a single week at PVGC, and perhaps those who see this auction item will think that's what he did, and that's what this item indicates. For my part, if Harry could do all that in a single week he sure as hell does deserve to be considered the greatest architect who ever lived----and by about twenty times over.  

But I know what Crump and others did before Harry got there and I know what they did after he left which is different from what Harry left behind or gave them. From all that's currently known that I'm aware of both Crump and Colt (and the other known collaborators such as Alison) are about to get their just due as to precisely what they all did down there both individually and collectively.

[Voytek Wilczak]

niblickgolfdesign just bid up to $3,500.

is it these guys?:

http://www.niblickgolfdesign.com/home/

[ForkaB]

If it is, it's oor Brian!  Don't bid against this guy.  It could not be in better hands.  Honestly.

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