News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 09:06:04 PM »
That certainly looks to be another iteration of the design topo map of the golf course that hangs in the clubhouse. If I could see more of the course details on this auction item better I could tell more. All I can see is a part of #18 which looks to be the same hole drawing as is on the design topo map in the clubhouse. One marked difference between that one and this one is the titling of the one in the clubhouse says "Property of George Crump March 1913" and this one appears to say "Survey(?) For Pine Valley Golf Course as suggested by H.S. Colt". The one in the clubhouse has Colt's blue lines of all the holes but it also has Crump's red lines. If this item has none of the red lines but identical blue lines to the one in the clubhouse then I'd have to say this one would probably not be very useful for research. If, however, the blue lines on this one were markedly different from the blue lines on the one in the clubhouse then this one would have more research interest and value. To me the surveying firm looks to be the same on both. There is also a very early iteration of a routing in the supers office that looks to be before Colt arrived in May/June 1913.

From what I can see of this auction item the thing of most interest to me is the different titleing from the one hanging in the clubhouse. I just don't know what to make of that, particularly if the local surveyor is the same which it appears to be from the little I can see. One fairly logical assumption that comes to mind is that George Crump may've been attempting to promote the course as designed by Harry Colt, one of the more famous architects in the world at that time.

If one keeps in mind the time  of this drawing---eg May/June 1913 and apparently on the same topo map as the one in the clubhouse and if one keeps in mind that George Crump had done nothing previously in golf architecture and was therefore a virtual unknown in the field in May/June 1913 I think if I were Crump I'd try to promote the course as designed by H.S. Colt too. Crump was certainly no dumby and he obviously understood at that early time in the development of the couse and club that the course could be promoted better with Colt's name on it than his own.

I suggest and certainly hope Pine Valley buys this because it sure looks bona fide to me.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 09:26:30 PM by TEPaul »

Peter_Herreid

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 09:08:19 PM »
Wow--I just got the strongest sense of deja vu! ;)

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 09:30:32 PM »
"This auction is for the original 1913 Blueprint by H.S. Cult for Harry Crump. The blueprint shows a scaled down veiw of the original Golf Cource with all 18 holes as well as lakes and ponds. This is a one of a kind item. a great addition to any collection. Happy bidding. PS I am sorry for the poor pic quality."

For an article like this one this kind of description and the ludicrous errors in it are hilarious. Would you buy something from an auction company who screwed up a semi-provenance this badly? Nevertheless it definitely looks like a bona fide item to me.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 09:39:15 PM »
Take it to the Antiques Road Show... ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 10:13:25 PM »
I know very little about ebay or auctioneering but I believe the co-called "Provenance" and its bona fides is a big part of a legitmate auction company. Consequently, one thing that would truly interest me is where  and particularly who this item came from to be auctioned and if wherever or whomever it came from has any knowledge of where it may've been for the last ninety two years. That alone could possibly have significant research value. I can pretty much guarantee the seller is not PVGC or probably anyone in any way connected with it.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 10:15:27 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 11:59:43 PM »
TE
My impression is Crump had plenty of investors pre-Colt (and Crump's pockets were pretty deep in 1913).

And the project had also attracted considerable interest prior to Colt (thanks in part to Tillinghast).

It doesn't make sense that Colt was only involved as a promotional stunt? How well known was Colt in N.America at the time?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 12:01:50 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2005, 12:18:43 AM »
Tom Paul,

Why don't you and Tom MacWood put up a bid?  

If it's authentic, I'm quite sure it will retain its value and might possibly shed some real light on some of the questions that swirl around Colt's involvement.  After all, who knows more about the origins and remaining questions than you two?

I'd bid myself, but I'd have to sell my house first, and you guys don't want to see me both drunk and homeless.  ;)

As it is, I've had to sell out for comped rounds.  ;D

At worst, it would make a really nice wall hanging.  :D
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 12:21:05 AM by Mike Cirba »

Andy Levett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2005, 05:19:08 AM »
It's not an auction company - the seller appears to be a Clementon bar owner - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=35658&item=7179857343
That could explain how he came by it  ;)

It's dated July 1913
 and says Scheme For The Pine Valley Golf Course as suggested by H.S. Colt, not Survey.


ForkaB

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2005, 06:15:05 AM »
TEP

Since you live in the area and probably still have some time on your hands, why don't you just go out to Clementon and find that bar where the document resides and ask if you can take a look at it?  There can't be that many bars in Clementon, so all you have to do is go into each one of them and offer to trade one of your GCA books or other golf mementos for a large glass of merlot, and before you know it you'll have found the seller.  Or, was that how the map got out there in the first place.........?????? :o

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2005, 08:18:41 AM »
Here's the response I got from a question I sent to the auction:

"I think it is around 4 feet by 3 feet, I will post the exact demensions once I get off work. I am trying to get a better camera for tommorow and I will send you better pics. I Picked the print up a a local auction a few years ago."
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2005, 08:41:55 AM »
I do a little ebaying and found it interesting that the seller typically sells electronics, that may not mean much but I would kinda expect to see this from someone that sells alot of golf, sports, or history stuff.  It may be that he doesn't know what he has.  Nonetheless, it is an interesting item, more so than the image of Mary on the burnt toast.

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2005, 08:42:00 AM »
Andy:

How can you tell the seller is a bar owner in Clementon?

I would take the time to go look at it if that were possible to do. If it's another iteration of the same survey map with identical hole drawings (blue lines=Colt) on it as the one hanging in the clubhouse it wouldn't have much value to me research-wise. But obviously if the hole drawings were different from anything I've previously seen it sure would have research value particularly if those blue lines were more like the way the golf course was built compared to the blue liness on the one in the clubhouse.

Thanks for pulling up info on the map better than me. I just can't make things out very well from the photos on ebay.

The date July 1913 is pretty interesting to me too---at least potentially. One needs to determine if that date on the map was done by the surveying company or someone else. Basically, I'd say if it was done by the surveyor it could be very interesting because it might mean Colt was there later and perhaps quite a bit longer than anyone has heretofore known (I sort of doubt Colt would've taken it back to England and worked on it but who knows?). But even if the date was put on the map by someone else it still has some interest as again it's later than Colt is believed to have been there. I guess someone like Crump could've just added that date in July for some reason and if that were so it might shed some light on how or if he used this particular item later as well as perhaps when he started marking up the one in the clubhouse with his red lines which frankly he could've done continuously for years as he kept working on the design of the course for the next five years and still wasn't finished with the golf course (before he died). If that auction item happens to have some of Crump's red lines on it too that could also be interesting research-wise.

I see a bunch of PST times on the bidding. I guess that means the bidders are from the West Coast, huh?

Robert:

The size of that item sounds to be the same size as the one in the clubhouse and the first one in the maintenance  building which has the name and address of the surveying company on it. If you get a photo where you can see the name of the surveying company on this item let me know. It's seem logical to assume they would all be the same.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 08:54:11 AM by TEPaul »

LOberman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2005, 08:51:53 AM »
EBAY operates on pst time so you can't read anything into who the bidders are based upon the time of their bids.

The current top bidder is tough to get a read on.  He has made two purchases in the past three months (an ipod case and a laptop computer network card).  He has sold a number of items including a couple of Titleist drivers and a set of Mizuno irons.  Based upon that history I doubt he is a major player in golf memorabilia.

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2005, 08:51:56 AM »
I do a little ebaying and found it interesting that the seller typically sells electronics, that may not mean much but I would kinda expect to see this from someone that sells alot of golf, sports, or history stuff.  It may be that he doesn't know what he has.

I find it interesting that his last transaction ended with negative feedback being left on the sale of a $79 item. Caveat Emptor.
"chief sherpa"

wsmorrison

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2005, 09:03:29 AM »
Tom Paul,

Did you look at the hole drawing just above the "Scheme for Pine Valley Golf Course "inset?

Although it is extremely low resolution, it doesn't look exactly the same as hole XVII on the blue and red pencil drawing which I think is in the same location as the only hole that can be seen in the ebay photos.  Let's go over and take a look at it.  Shall I ask the seller if we can see it?

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2005, 09:04:10 AM »
Brock Peyer:

If the seller's from Clementon NJ I'd think it's a lot less important if he's not a golf collector. You just can't believe the odd places some really valuable stuff from old golf clubs ends up particularly if its in the vicinity of the golf club. An incredible treasure trove of original NGLA material ended up in an auto air conditioning shop in Southampton LI and in the house of a guy who works there. Of course the fact he's the grandson of C.B Macdonald's superintendent makes it all make sense though. There're a few people at PVGC today whose families have been at PVGC from the very beginning. Maybe this seller's family is one of those. George Crump was not exactly abstemious, ya know. Perhaps he left this item in that bar one night in 1913 and it's been there ever since!  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2005, 09:16:16 AM »
The date July 1913 is pretty interesting to me too---at least potentially. One needs to determine if that date on the map was done by the surveying company or someone else. Basically, I'd say if it was done by the surveyor it could be very interesting because it might mean Colt was there later and perhaps quite a bit longer than anyone has heretofore known (I sort of doubt Colt would've taken it back to England and worked on it but who knows?).

TE
I wouldn't be surprised if Colt worked on the plan back in England. I've always suspected he did, partly becasue he had done so before. In 1913 Colt wrote an article on the process (Course making unseen), the unnamed course in the article he had never even stepped foot on. I think it is pretty clear Crump and Colt were corresponding after Colt went back home.

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2005, 09:24:49 AM »
Wayne:

The (blue-line) drawing of #18 is not exactly the same on the map in the clubhouse as this item. In the one in the clubhouse the "stick line" goes right through that right fairway bunker but on this one it doesn't. I can't be that sure about the hole drawing in the Colt hole by hole booklet because I couldn't photograph it---I had to spend a few hours copying each drawing and there is no "stick line" on #18 but maybe I forgot to copy it.  ;)

TEPaul

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2005, 09:43:41 AM »
"TE
I wouldn't be surprised if Colt worked on the plan back in England. I've always suspected he did, partly becasue he had done so before. In 1913 Colt wrote an article on the process (Course making unseen), the unnamed course in the article he had never even stepped foot on. I think it is pretty clear Crump and Colt were corresponding after Colt went back home."

Tom MacW:

That's certainly possible, maybe even likely. It might better explain that date on this item too. It would certainly be surprising if Crump and Colt never corresponding on PVGC again after Colt left PV and America in June 1913 (particularly if Crump really did pay Colt $10,000 ;) ). If they never corresponded much again after Colt left that fact alone would surely say a lot about what Crump may've thought about Colt as well as the ensuing years of the creation of PVGC.

On the other hand, if the hole drawings in this item are in blue lines and those hole drawings (Colt) on this item more closely match the details of the way the course got built or even in some or many ways matched some of the red lines on the topo map in the clubhouse, then that would tell me that more of the hole designs and features of the golf course that were actually built were more Colt's than anyone has realized.

However, if the blue line hole drawings on this item are basically the same as the blue lines on the topo map in the clubhouse or on the hole drawings in Colt's hole by hole booklet than this item is not of much research use as to what else Colt may've done on PVGC's design that matches the way the course got built. And if a lot of the blue lines on this item match Crump's red lines then one wonders why Crump drew so many red line features on the topo map that hangs in the clubhouse which so closely matches the features that were actually built on the course.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 09:48:05 AM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2005, 10:22:06 AM »
That part of the 17th looks the same as on the one in the clubhouse.  It's not the 18th.

Interesting that the ponds are included though,  they aren't really on the one in the clubhouse.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 11:08:49 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

A_Clay_Man

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2005, 10:24:28 AM »
I do a little ebaying and found it interesting that the seller typically sells electronics,

BP- I believe he was the buyer on those items.

TePaul, You asked Andy, but in the description of the Jagermeister item he devulges his justification for selling as no fitting into his bar.


Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2005, 11:08:07 AM »
How much do you guys think it will go for?

6 more days and the bidding has been pretty vigorous...

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2005, 11:45:59 AM »
Robert T:

   I emailed seller asking where he picked up the item and he said "at the Berlin Auction."

Is there a town in NJ called Berlin or are there conflicting resposes here?
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

wsmorrison

Re:Original Pine Valley Blueprint for sale on Ebay
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2005, 01:06:55 PM »
Gene,

There is a Berlin, NJ and it isn't far from Clementon.

Tags:
Tags: