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Don_Mahaffey

Who said this?
« on: November 26, 2005, 10:55:21 AM »
While reading through some old green section articles I came across this quote. The last sentence says it all.




"The influence of the unknowing member has become notorious in American golf. Unfortunately, there has been a tendency in recent years to produce softer conditions for play by encouraging more vigorous grass growth than is necessary. The production of fast-growing soft greens and fairways should be avoided. They result in unnecessary maintenance problems and are not really ideal for the game. The truly proficient golfer relies on back-spin to stop his shot, not a hose."
« Last Edit: November 26, 2005, 11:17:13 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2005, 11:39:47 AM »
I'm thinking the word "hose" is a clue here.

It's not Mac's style of writing, but it sure is his sentiments.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

A_Clay_Man

Re:Who said this?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2005, 11:45:10 AM »
Ross?

Joe,
I was thinking Doug And Bob Mackensie, Ayuh?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2005, 11:58:08 AM »

Joe,
I was thinking Doug And Bob Mackensie, Ayuh?

No way, hoser! ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2005, 01:48:06 PM »
Bobby Jones?


Yes, that last sentence was indeed the best and the main reason why I went with Jones. I can almost hear him say it in his slow southern drawl.

Tully

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2005, 01:54:28 PM »
Well the hints of reading Green Section articles, and the fact that the author is old enough to have an understanding of a time past when firm conditions were maintained without extreme fert-irrigation turf management, I'd guess a guy like Fred Grau or Baird or someone like that.  It is hard to talk about how it was in the old days without having lived there... ;)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who said this?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2005, 06:26:42 PM »
Total guess: Flynn?

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Who said this?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2005, 07:10:49 PM »
Probably not a very good quote to use on this website as it came from someone much more known as a player then architect.  Here is a link to the article the quote was taken from.


http://www.usga.org/turf/articles/management/irrigation/less_water.html

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Who said this?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2005, 11:57:53 PM »

This is why Mackenzie was so suspicious of professional golfers. Even when their conclusions were correct, they still arrived at them from totally flawed perspectives.

Cotton was in many ways the architect of the modern golf swing, not Hogan. He perfected the compact backswing and was a superbly controlled hitter at his peak. All his views on golf courses were about rewarding himself for his ability to execute. He liked firm greens but felt fairways should be holding so a mishit wouldn't run as far as a mostly carried drive. He liked cross-bunkered, tight, fair, penal courses where the punishment 'fit the crime'.

ForkaB

Re:Who said this?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2005, 11:15:12 AM »

This is why Mackenzie was so suspicious of professional golfers. Even when their conclusions were correct, they still arrived at them from totally flawed perspectives.


This is very patronizing, Mark (from you and/or Mackenzie.  I can't really see where you get any evidence that Cotton's quote comes from a "totally flawed perspective(s)."  Why were they (per se) any less flawed that Mackenzie's perspective?  Can you please enlighten us? ???

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Who said this?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2005, 09:53:21 PM »
Cotton's quote is a good one Rich, if you just take the words at face value. Personally I wouldn't use it myself because I dislike many of his accompanying views on golf courses.

Like many professionals past and present, what flawed Cotton's perspective was his selfishness; naturally preferring courses and conditions that favoured himself. Narrow fairways flanked by high rough because HE was short and straight. Firm greens because HE could flight his irons softly, and not because they powered some greater mechanism the way they did for Mackenzie. Cotton's belief that difficult, penal golf was the "finer sieve" that would produce good players may have had some foundation, but it would have let a lot of handicap players fall by the wayside wherever it was adopted.

On the other hand, Mackenzie's ideal was that which afforded the greatest pleasure to the greatest number. Every aspect of his theory was bolted on to every other aspect, in an integrated way. Because he wasn't competing at the top level he wasn't affected by the same bias professionals can often exhibit—which itself is just human nature after all. If you like him, you can quote Mackenzie without too much fear something else he said will come back to bite you in the ass. I don't think you can do that with Cotton.

Personally I was always extraordinarily keen on all kinds of sports and games, but I could never achieve more than a mediocre success in any of them, and so it was quite natural that a member of a committee who, metaphorically speak-ing, could knock my head off at golf, would assume that his opinion on a debatable point was at any rate of an equal value to mine. On the other hand what he did not realize, and could hardly be expected to do so, was that I had given the subject years and years of intensive study and thought, whereas he had only given it a few minutes consideration during the time the matter was being debated. - Alister Mackenzie

ForkaB

Re:Who said this?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2005, 02:57:50 AM »
Thanks, Mark

I suppose one could "accuse" Mackenzie similarly--that he designed golf courses to suit his own (very average) game rather than the games of expert players.  Maybe that's why Bobby Jones and others had to keep "improving" Augusta every year.........:)

I've played one Cotton design, Moray (New), and one revision (Stirling) and each is a pleasure to play.  The former is a superb piece of routing on a very constrained site (within the boundaries of the "Old" course).  The latter has some thrilling heroic holes, particularly the signature hole which is actually one (it is called "Henry Cotton")!  According to C&W he established a foundation at the end of his life to establish more cheap and cheerful golf courses for beginners.  Not particularly selfish, that......

Mackenzie was a great architect, but not infallible and not without a huge ego, much like Cotton, come to think of it. ;)  They just had different capabilities and perspectives.  IMHO, of course.