'Bottle' Hole at NGLA

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It would appear that the left line bunkers were in the fairway and that there was some room left of the last bunker, but, not the sort of room you'd view as a potential LZ.

In addition, from the tee, I believe the topography renders that area invisible, and thus not a likely target from the tee.

Also look at the center fairway bunker complex just short of the green on # 11.

As you know, there are numerous routes for a variety of golfers at NGLA and I think CBM inserted some features with the clear intent of having the higher handicap encounter them.

With respect to the 7th and 12th fairway, I believe George is correct, in that there must have been a tee to the left of the
11th green.  I say this because of the alignment of the left side fairway bunkers.  From a tee to the right of # 11 green, they really don't come into play unless a golfer drove in the direction of the 6th green.  However, if you drive from a tee left of the 11th green they become a material and significant factor on the drive.

If you look at almost all the holes, CBM demanded carry, and a tee left of # 11 would fit into that scheme, perfectly.

I'm also curious as to the meaning of the dotted lines to the front left of the 12th tee.  What do you suppose they were indicating ?  They do not appear anywhere else on the golf course.

The fairway behind # 7 is interesting.
Years ago, while playing a practice round with George Zahringer, he told me that when the hole was located behind the road bunker he tried to go long, just over the green.
Seeing the map and fairway area behind the 7th green convinces me that CBM intended that to be a playing option.
Also, notice the tee right behind the 7th green, just like the tee on # 2, and # 13.

The next time I'm at NGLA I'm going to play # 13 from that spot.  The angle into the green, and the cant of the green from that angle are quite interesting.

I'm also interested in the seperation of the green from the right side bunker on # 13.  I had heard that this was allowed to go to non-green during WWII, but, it's obvious from the map that it was that way in 1928.  I wonder if that happened during WWI ?

What also strikes me as interesting on that map is the bell behind # 3.  There's a plaque on that bell indicating that my friend Joe McBride donated it.  Yet it appears on the 1928 map.   Perhaps Joe donated after the earlier bell or bells fell into disrepair or were removed.

And, I'm curious with respect to the pavillion on # 10 and the two figures on an elevated observation platform.

What you and I need to do is study the large map that used to be in the basement, that now resides in the pro shop to see if it matches the one in the book, or if the map in the book is actually an updated version of the one in the pro shop.

"Scotland's Gift" should be required reading for anyone interested in golf course architecture.

By the way, how did you get your book ?

P.S.  Don't ever forget what CBM said on page 295.

[BCrosby]

I agree with George.

What strikes me as special about the Bottle Hole is the narrowing of the landing area the farther you hit it.

But "narrowing" not in the USGA/RTJ sense where rough is brought in or landing areas ringed with bunkers. The genius of the hole is that the "narrowing" (disclosure: I've never played the hole and am happy to be corrected) is far more interesting than the usual binary good v. bad result. There seem to be a range of possible results that are hard to predict. Even you guys that have played the hole often don't seem to agree about the best way to the green.

All of which makes me think that the Bottle Hole offers interesting architectural ideas about how modern designs might better combat modern distance issues without dredging up the same, tired USGA solutions.

Bob

   

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

Actually the fairway widens dramatically once you're long enough to land past the centerline row of bunkers.

It doesn't narrow again until 50 yards later when the PN Bunker is encountered.

[George_Bahto]

doesn't all this discussion reinforce how great a hole this is?

[TEPaul]

"I'm also curious as to the meaning of the dotted lines to the front left of the 12th tee.  What do you suppose they were indicating ?  They do not appear anywhere else on the golf course."

Pat:

I have no idea what the unique configuration of those lines to the left of #12 tee could indicate. But some experience with old golf course drawings and design plans tells me they certainly mean something. Having studied Ross and Flynn drawings as well as some others it appears there was something of a pictoral vocabulary or language with all those various markings amongst most architects of that era who drew. I guess the reason for that is pretty obvious---it was probably a form of construction instruction for crews who perhaps were contracted. We certainly think it was with Flynn who was remarkably detailed and precise in his drawing to construction mode. We also figure that was a form of marketing or salesmanship where a client could see on paper pretty precisely what was to go on the ground. It was also a form of construction cost efficiency we believe. Since Toomey & Flynn tended to break down the component parts of design and construction in their contracts into cost components I guess it was a way of showing clients what the component parts they were paying for looked like on paper before going on the ground.

[Andy Hughes]

I am still confused about the green, in several ways.
1. What is special about the green?
2. Is there or is there not anything about the green that physically rewards a drive down the narrower left side?
3. Is the hole great in spite of the green?
4. If the green does not reward a drive down the left side, would it be a better hole if it did?

Please, how far do you need to carry it to get past the echelon of bunkers?

[TEPaul]

"I am still confused about the green, in several ways.
1. What is special about the green?
2. Is there or is there not anything about the green that physically rewards a drive down the narrower left side?
3. Is the hole great in spite of the green?
4. If the green does not reward a drive down the left side, would it be a better hole if it did?"

Andy:

That's my whole point. To those who know that hole pretty well there is no real agreement about that and perhaps there never has been. Some feel very strongly the left side is strategically advantageous and some don't. That's what makes the hole so interesting and enigmatic in my opinion. The reason I say that is because that sort of mysteriousness about which option to choose (right or left) makes for a hole where both options are liberally used by a whole spectrum of players. To me this puts the various strategies of the hole in a form of equilibrium or balance, and to me strategic import gets no better than that. That kind of thing really is where a hole can get a player who knows it well to stand on the tee and say to himself; "What to do?, what to do?" I know it's one of those rare holes that does that to me. This is what an architectural philosopher like Behr concentrated on so much when he wrote about architecture. To him this is precisely how an architect ratcheted up the component of "thought"---eg what Behr referred to as the necessity of "intelligence" to deal with great architecture.

[BCrosby]

Pat -

I think we are saying the same thing. The Bottle Hole presents the big hitter with opportunites and disasters that are not easy to define.

Is the PN bunker in play for big hitters?

George -

Yes. Clearly.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Is the PN bunker in play for big hitters?"

Bob:

It is now although that was probably not what it was designed for by Macdonald. Karl Olsen who was obviously long told me he put a few drives in the PN.