The Good Doctor Double Dips

[Mike Hendren]

I was unaware that the 9th at Pasatiempo originally featured alternate greens.  I assume the lower left-hand green remains while the upper right-hand green was in the area of the golf shop and was abandoned when the first tee was moved down the hill?

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike - this is what JC Urbina said, in the Pasatiempo restoration thread:


  You would have enjoyed the original 9th green, it was where the first tee is now located.  At one time Pasatiempo had a two greens on Nine and both were in play.


If anyone would know, it is he.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

I was surprised to see that lost green on their web-site's slide show of historical photographs.  I missed Mr. Urbina's comment on the previous thread.  

This must have been one brute of a golf hole to that green.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

You think so?

I don't see a play to that green being much more difficult to the current green.  As the pic shows, there were really NO trees at that time anywhere near either green. All you're talking is a few more yards, a bit more up the hill.   The hole isn't all that long to begin with, so while the upper green would make for a tougher approach, well... I can't call it a "brute."

It is a neat pic, though.

Of course put a green there NOW, with the trees in the way, and we're talking brutal.

 

TH

PS - isn't the pic of 11 cool?  God I'd love to play that hole sans trees in the barranca... we've discussed it before but my dream is to allow for the Bobby Jones option of playing up 12 fairway off the tee.  That pic shows how it could have been done.  Then the same happens on 12 going downhill - you could play down 11 fairway if you so chose.  Of course today's litigious society not to mention overcrowded course will never allow for such a thing - not to mention the treehuggers freaking out if those enormous old trees were cut down - but dare to dream, dare to dream....

[Bill_McBride]

TH, a player of your caliber could handle the required shot -- a 280 yard carry tight down the left side, Nicklausian elevation, with a hard duck hook at the end!

Piece of cake!  

[THuckaby2]

Bill - well of course that shot is way outside my abilities.  But we are talking about #11, correct?  Think about it a little more - NO TREES AT ALL, the length of the barranca.

That wouldn't require much of a carry at all.  Oh it would be a bit of a risk, as the tee shot would have to carry the barranca a bit.  But think of going over very close to the tee... the shot required would actually be a big hard fade going up the hill.  The reward would be no carry involved in approach.  Do it correctly and it also could shorten the hole.

Going downhill on 12, well it wouldn't make all that much sense to go down 11 fairway, but it would be a choice... the carry there being a "bite off as much as you can chew" sort of thing.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

This is an old thread, but glad I found it.

I was looking thru old pics of Pasatiempo and noticed the 9th had a higher green to the right. I guess I assumed it was removed to build the existing clubhouse and the current 9th green was built in its place, but am pleasantly surprised to learn otherwise.  I also wondered if that was just a practice area, but then didn't think practice areas were really built back then.

Interestingly enough,  if you:

1) Browse to Pasatiempo's website and go to this page, http://www.pasatiempo.com/web/photos_slideshows.php
2) Launch the slideshow for the historical photos.
3) Go to the 8th hole.

If you look past the 8th green and all the way up the hill, it would appear that only the higher 9th green is there and the existing one hasn't been built yet.  And if its there, then those cars are parked all over it, which seems unlikely they would have done.  So it looks like the existing 9th green was built at some point after the debut of the course. If you look at the pic of the 9th in the slide show, it clearly shows the current 9th green in place.

Does anyone have more history on this and/or know how much later the current 9th green was built?

[Tim Bert]

In the pro shop on the wall opposite of the display cases there is a large routing that shows the two greens on the 9th.  I can't recall if it is an original or if it is a modern re-production of the old routing.  If it is actually an old map and it is dated, then that might provide some clue of how long ago it existed.

[rchesnut]

I'll check around to see if I can find out more on the timing of the two greens.  We did look at restoring the upper green, but it's not practical and while it might add 15 yards to the whole (all uphill), the benefit just wouldn't be justified by the costs.

The trees in the 11/12 barranca are interesting.  On Opening Day in 1929, Bobby Jones did hit his drive on 11 over that barranca into the 12th fairway, a feat that would be practically impossible today due to the trees.  And for safety reasons, it's a good thing the trees are there.   

What does happen today, though, is that intelligent golfers who pull their drive on 12 into that barranca often choose to drop on the opposite side of the hazard, in the rough on 11.  This gives them a decent shot into the 12th green, particularly if there's a back left pin placement.  It's an intelligent use of the rule that permits going to the opposite side of a hazard to drop, since trees in the barranca effectively block any approach shot to the green from the left rough on 12, making that hazard otherwise particularly penal. 

Rob

[Kalen Braley]

Rob,

Thanks for taking a look into that, would be interesting to know how it played out on 9.  It'd be neat to restore that upper green and then move the tee box for 1 back up to the top of the hill....but I guess wouldn't be very practical and open up some liability issues.

During the last KP both Spaulding and Benham had a go at that other fairway, but the trees were just too tall and far away to make the carry.  I'd bet Daly or JB Holmes could make it though.   

[Kyle Henderson]

I'll check around to see if I can find out more on the timing of the two greens.  We did look at restoring the upper green, but it's not practical and while it might add 15 yards to the whole (all uphill), the benefit just wouldn't be justified by the costs.

The trees in the 11/12 barranca are interesting.  On Opening Day in 1929, Bobby Jones did hit his drive on 11 over that barranca into the 12th fairway, a feat that would be practically impossible today due to the trees.  And for safety reasons, it's a good thing the trees are there.   

What does happen today, though, is that intelligent golfers who pull their drive on 12 into that barranca often choose to drop on the opposite side of the hazard, in the rough on 11.  This gives them a decent shot into the 12th green, particularly if there's a back left pin placement.  It's an intelligent use of the rule that permits going to the opposite side of a hazard to drop, since trees in the barranca effectively block any approach shot to the green from the left rough on 12, making that hazard otherwise particularly penal. 

Rob

You mean to say that NO ONE has the brass to climb down there and play their original ball through the channel?

[Tom Huckaby]

Kyle - I've done so playing 11 (hit ball down into barranca off tee, could see it, played it up toward green); and on 12 (into barranca relatively close to green, again could see it, chopped it toward green through trees) but in each case I was exceedingly lucky to find the ball and have a swing.  Believe me that barranca bottom is not a happy place... althought it is a LOT more cleared out these days than it ever has been.

Rob - I agree that for safety reasons my dream of full tree removal from this barranca is a pipe dream... but man it would be cool if it could be played like this.  Oh well....

[Jon Spaulding]

Here is a decent photo of both greens in play. The green on the right sure would be at an odd angle with all the trees in play today.....

TH, keep dreaming the dream. I prefer the current trees to 50' tall netting....

[Tom Huckaby]

Love that picture!

What gets me is how they propped up that one tree... even back then there were tree-huggers!

Good point re my dream (nightmare) also.  Netting would NOT be good.

 

[BVince]

Great picture.  Are two greens necessary?  Does anyone think it would be a better hole played to the green on the right?  Would it be worth moving the first tee to put the green back?  What would be the extra maintenance cost to keep a green that would only be used some of the time?

[Bob Jenkins]

Rob Chestnut mentioned, when we were there for KPVI, that the first tee was originally where the practice putting green now sits and he had hoped someday to be able to restore that. They would, however, need more land to the left of that area for a range, etc. and that is a problem. Knowing the first tee used to be over there explains, for this simple mind, how the second green could be used on 9.