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Dan Kelly

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Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2005, 03:48:48 PM »
I miss JakaB.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2005, 04:07:41 PM »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2005, 04:22:24 PM »
Tom Huckaby writes:
I just do believe there is a large segment who might just get tired of him railing on things PERIOD and always being so negative and/or "catty"; that this makes his writing style in these types of pieces "immature", as SPDB says... that wish he'd write something righteous and hopeful, as they say, if not more insightful.

That's what the world needs, a more positive curmudgeon.

If you want a more positive spin on the GolfDigest gathering, you could have clicked on the link in the little box near the top and it would have taken you to the GolfDigest spin. Also I'm sure they will be covering there event, and how much you want to bet they will have a positive spin.

Maybe I'm way off.  Not that Geoff likely cares one way or the other, but if this causes some not to take him seriously, well that can't be a good thing either, can it?

There was a reason I included the Abe Lincoln quote. Old Abe said lots of really serious things in his career. But 140 years later we still remember his sarcastic letter to General McClellan. Want to bet lots of people thought that letter was beneath him?

ps to Adam - do you really think Geoff is fireballing RANKERS in general?

My take was it was making fun of all rankers. The Golf Digest variety was just the current target because of their gathering.

Jeff_Brauer writes:
If I finish first or nowhere in the GD other rankings, it still highlights my craft.

A place I frequent here in Los Gatos was awarded three stars in the recent Michelin Guide to fine dining. It's a big deal for the restaurant and I think it is a good thing. How would it advance fine dining to have his restaurant compete against another three star in San Francisco or New York? What if the other restaurant had nothing else in common with the place in Los Gatos other than they both serve food?

Here on GCA I've seen plenty of talk about some course dropping from 24th to 36th in some rankings. Any value in that?

Geoff is unique amongst golf writers because he isn't in it for the free stuff. Face it, golf writing doesn't pay a whole heck of a lot (especially doing it for GolfObserver) so for most writers the benefit is free stuff. As a non-golfing golfer, Geoff isn't looking for free stuff.

Anyway, Geoff is probably smiling to himself - the most important line in my post is that I read him monthly.  In the end, to a writer, its not who you piss off, or what you change.  Its circulation!

If only that were true.

Tom Huckaby writes:
As for how seriously the rankings are taken, I'm kinda glad those who do them DO take them seriously.  My regret is how seriously they are taken out in the golf world.  That's what's bad for golf.

Are they willing to taken them serious enough to stop getting special treatment from the courses?

Mike Cirba writes:
Last Thursday I took off work and drove 2.5 hours each way to play Maryland National GC, an Art Hills course below Gettysburg and paid the $51 green fee.

I'd still think the rating are stupid, but I would think more of the raters if they stopped identifying themselves as raters. Just go to the course, pay the normal fees and don't let anyone know you come from some publication.

Just think how much better the ratings would be if the magazine paid their raters instead of expecting you to get it from the golf course you are trying to cover.

Dan King
Quote
Asking a working writer what he thinks about critics is like asking a lamp-post how it feels about dogs.
 --Christopher Hampton

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2005, 04:34:28 PM »
Dan:

The most important part of all of this is:  which place in Los Gatos?  My wife and I just went to Kuleto's there and really enjoyed it.  I think we've been anywhere there is to go in the town of the cats.  But of course I do need more Dan King sightings a la last Friday.  Do tell.

 ;D

Regarding Geoff and this article, I just do think there is a large segment that just discounts Geoff completely due to too frequent curmudgeonliness, too frequent rails against "the man", (meaning any sort of authority), and thus his views rather than listened to are too often discounted.  I want the man to be listened to.  He's super-talented and can effect change.  I just think article's like today's don't help his cause.

But you are far closer to this than I am, and far wiser about this and damn near everything.  I defer to your judgment.

One final thing, again:  as for ratings/rankers/general issues, well good lord we've beaten that to death too many times before and it's crystal clear that no views are ever going to change on any side.  But I have to respond to:

"Are they willing to taken them serious enough to stop getting special treatment from the courses?"

this too has been beaten to death.  Sure there is a segment for whom that is the sole and only draw.  And not to beat this dead horse yet again, but you tell me how I am to do a rating on the many private courses I am asked to do, outside of receiving some special treatment.  How the hell do I get on at all without identifying myself and asking for access?  And many of the public course are a royal pain in the ass on which to get a tee time.  To serve this principle, I'm not allowed to ask for some help in getting a tee time?

ABUSE of this "special treatment" is of course a bad thing.  As is basing one's assessment on the presence or lack thereof of such treatment.  Again, I don't doubt there are abusers and those who handle their assessments in this horrid way.  I just also have to believe that the good greatly outweigh the bad.

One final thing, on which we agree: smaller groups of paid raters would make for a MUCH better, more fair system.  But come on Dan, that has as much chance of happening as you going clean-shaven and bald any time soon.  Of course you can make that happen to prove a point - no one here or anywhere is gonna get any of the magazines to adopt this type of system.  So let's live in reality, shall we?

TH


« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 04:37:05 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2005, 04:41:30 PM »
Mike,

   A very humble apology is order.  :'(I was easily too rash in including you into my sarcastic treatment of what I thought was a natural extension to Geoff's rant. Corrected.

  You are indeed possess real intellectual honesty (even if some of your taste in friends ;D, architects, courses and websites remains suspect ;)) I hope you can accept my apology for associating you with....those others! ;D

   


PS

  From your description, sounds like being a rater is a bitch.....mmmm...if that, then???

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2005, 04:42:42 PM »
Hey Tiger,

Go Vols. ;)

The BGGWR  (for JakaB - in case you're lurking)
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2005, 04:49:45 PM »
Mike H. - good man!  Of course it was you I had in mind when I mentioned the VOLS.   ;D

Mike C. - hell I hardly do any magazine ratings at all - another misconception people have being that this is all the golf guys like us play.  But in any case, in addition to private clubs, if I am assigned to do a rating for such, I have been known to ask for a favor getting a tee time at public courses like most of the good ones in CA where the rule is "call at 6am, all times gone by 6:05".  I guess I am part of the axis of evil.   ;)

In any case, I doubt this is the part Dan takes issue with.  But we shall see.  The man is well-reasoned.

TH
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 05:38:20 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2005, 06:24:43 PM »
Tom Huckaby writes:
My wife and I just went to Kuleto's there and really enjoyed it.

Kuleto's is good, but overpriced. If you really want good, imaginative Italian food, you have to go to Manresa. It's a bit hidden, on Village Lane, a little street off Highway 9 between University and Santa Cruz Ave.

Click here for Manresa's Web site

I go there regularly, but now it is much busier. Lucky for me I'm often a single and can sit at the counter and often get treated to some samples of stuff he is trying.

That is part of the point. If it was up to me, Manresa would be considered one of the best fine dining in the world. They treat me special when I'm there so they would get extra points from me for that. It is human nature to rate things higher when they treat you special.

you tell me how I am to do a rating on the many private courses I am asked to do, outside of receiving some special treatment.

It seems you have gotten on a large number of private courses without declaring you are a ranker. I also believe with a bit of work you can get on most any public golf course without first announcing you are a ranker.

Michelin doesn't try to rate the top restaurant chefs with the top private chefs. They understand it is two different type of chefs and comparing them would be crazy. If they were to start rating private chefs, I'm fairly certain they wouldn't combine their rankings with the public chefs.

ABUSE of this "special treatment" is of course a bad thing.  As is basing one's assessment on the presence or lack thereof of such treatment.

It is natural to enjoy being treated special. I'd be shocked if there are rankers out there who do not let being treated special influence their opinion of a course. The courses and architects understand this much better than you rankers understand it.

Dan King
Quote
Any reviewer who expresses rage and loathing for a novel is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
 --Kurt Vonnegut

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2005, 06:32:12 PM »
Dan:

We've been to Manresa's!  Loved it.  Kuleto's was a splurge the other day for our anniversary.

And your points re all of this are well-taken and understood.  Just in reply:

1.  Yes I have gotten to many private cluns sans rater status.  But that's not the point.  Often we are ASSIGNED to do others, often where we have zero connections and have no other way to gain access.  Are we to just fail our assignments because they'll know we're there?  Come on man, this is just practicality.

2. Re the public courses, sure I CAN make those happen sans special treatment, but it's just such often such a pain in the ass to do so, forgive me if I take the easy way out.  At times these are worse than the privates; think of Bethpage Black in this light.  So sure, it's not perfect, but again, it is practical.

3.  Yes it is human nature to favor places at which one is treated nicely.  But knowing this going in, one tries to avoid that.  In any case the practicalities of 1 and 2 above trump all other issues, most of the time.  Please understand that if one is consciencious about this (like every rater that posts on this site, as far as I know) one does try to use the LEAST amount of preferential treatment possible, for just this "conflict of interest" reason.  But often times practicalities mandate it.

4.  So sure, courses know that kiss our butts, get a great rating works far too often.  So in a perfect world, there are paid raters and this isn't an issue.  You do understand the imperfections of the world, right?  So please do outline how you think this ought to go, in reality.  I don't see a reality where there are paid raters, enough to cover all the courses to be seen.  But as always, I am open to your wisdom.

TH

ps - when are you next gonna hang out at Manresas?  My wife and I do need another night out sans kids, but it does require planning for that.  Or is this just a "any given night" kinda thing?

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2005, 06:43:09 PM »
Tom Huckaby writes:
when are you next gonna hang out at Manresas?  My wife and I do need another night out sans kids, but it does require planning for that.  Or is this just a "any given night" kinda thing?

My mistake. I looked at the link I put on the last post I sent. It is Cafe Marcella down the street that treats me royally that I eat at every so often. I've only been to Manresas once -- and it is the one that has three stars. Me, I prefer Cafe Marcella.

Dan King
Quote
Tomatoes and oregano make it Italian; wine and tarragon make it French. Sour cream makes it Russian; lemon and cinnamon make it Greek. Soy sauce makes it Chinese; garlic makes it good.
 --Alice May Brock

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2005, 06:48:02 PM »
Cool!  Now I have not been to Cafe Marcella but I think my wife has - it sounds familiar - she does a lot of business dinners in LG - no cracks.   ;)

In any case we have a new place to check out - and who knows?  One of the benefits would be a DK sighting.

 ;D

As for the other far less important issues, well I look forward to your reply.

TH
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 06:48:32 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2005, 06:53:01 PM »
Thread jack starting -

I too have been to Manresas and everytime I go to a restuarant with a similar menu, all those fancy names and ingrediants, I get the feeling that I am at a CCFAD.  Those menu's are no different then a tricked up Fazio or Jones course with fancy locker rooms, bag room attendants, and smiling cart girl.  All fluff, snotty service, pretty to look at, overly expensive and at the end of the meal (round) you are not quite sure what you ate except that you know you are still hungry.

I prefer a place where the menu is on the wall and there are no fancy garnishes on your plate ...

Henry's World Famous Hi-Life
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2005, 01:22:34 AM »
Tom Huckaby writes:
Yes I have gotten to many private cluns sans rater status.  But that's not the point.  Often we are ASSIGNED to do others, often where we have zero connections and have no other way to gain access.  Are we to just fail our assignments because they'll know we're there?  Come on man, this is just practicality.

Are you by any chance confusing your ratings with the NCGA with your rankings with Golf Digest? Are you saying Golf Digest assigns you courses to go and check out? This is news to me.

I'm curious how this works. Say you are assigned to go and review The Institute. Golf Digest just assigns you the job and then expects you to gain access and they hold it against you if you fail in your assignment?

At times these are worse than the privates; think of Bethpage Black in this light.  So sure, it's not perfect, but again, it is practical.

Back in the pre-Jones day, when my son went to school at UCSD, I'd often take him down there and then get in line for Torrey Pines at 4:00 a.m. Every time I did this I got on the course. Not too many courses that are considered public that a single can't play if they put their mind to it. Sure it is easier with a card from Golf Digest, but it is hardly impossible without.

Please understand that if one is consciencious about this (like every rater that posts on this site, as far as I know) one does try to use the LEAST amount of preferential treatment possible, for just this "conflict of interest" reason.  But often times practicalities mandate it.

Prove it and stop letting them know you are rankers.

You do understand the imperfections of the world, right?

Throwing up your hands and saying it is the way the system is and that's tough, doesn't get anything done. Democrats and Republicans have the deck stacked in their favor, but that doesn't keep me from supporting Kinky Friedman for Governor of Texas.

I have no problem fighting windmills.

So please do outline how you think this ought to go, in reality.  I don't see a reality where there are paid raters, enough to cover all the courses to be seen.  But as always, I am open to your wisdom.

Michelin works were Golf Digest doesn't. Why not learn from them?

Of course Golf Digest believes they can get away with their army of unpaid raters, knowing you are all getting paid by the golf courses. That is the point of columns like Geoff's, it points out the obvious conflict of interest of these rankings and one of the many reasons they need to be fixed.

Mike Benham writes:
I too have been to Manresas and everytime I go to a restuarant with a similar menu, all those fancy names and ingrediants, I get the feeling that I am at a CCFAD.

Like I said, when I first heard a place on Village Lane got a third star, I just sort of assumed it was the place I go to, Cafe Mercella. I'm disappointed to find out today that it was Manresas. It isn't my favorite Los Gatos eatery.

Dan King
Quote
A good eater must be a good man; for a good eater must have a good digestion, and a good digestion depends on a good conscience.
 --Benjamin Disraeli

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2005, 10:26:16 AM »
Dan:

Well gosh and golly and glory be, I can teach you something.

Yes, Golf Digest does assign us courses to rate.  Each year for "Best New", we get a certain number that we are required to do.  Some are public, some are private.  And yes, they do expect us to just make it happen.  Of course these new courses are typically itching to have us, so it's not a problem.  But still, think of the types of courses these are... the publics are all brand new, typically very popular, and thus are a royal pain in the ass on which to get a tee-time (think Rustic Canyon) and the privates are well, private.  Pray tell what do you suggest we do?  At the publics, yes we could fight it out with everyone else as you seem to require.  And maybe we should.  But damn that seems a lot to ask.  So does PAYING for it, to be honest.

But I find you are indeed tilting at windmills re this.  The end does not justify the means.

Dan, what you ought to do rather than picking on us wankuhs (and please do get that right if you are gonna invoke my son - you need the absolute correct pronunciation  ;D) is rail against the magazines for not having paid staffs and/or paying green fees for us.  Make that happen, man!

But in the meantime, give us who do this out in the real world a break.  Tell me also how I am to access these private clubs I am required to rate without identifying myself.  Sorry man, but a) I don't have the contacts you seem to think I do; and b) asking a friend isn't a whole hell of a lot different than asking the club - some obligation/conflict still exists.

We're doing the best we can, following the established rules.  Perhaps lightening up might be in order?  Or at the very least, directing your ire at the right target?  Of course Michelin works  - but they don't have any access issues and have paid reviewers!

Some food for thought also:

Do food of movie critics pick up their own tabs?

Why do you expect golf course wankuhs to do so?

Interesting standards here.

TH

« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 11:16:36 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2005, 11:45:03 AM »
Tom Huckaby writes:
But still, think of the types of courses these are... the publics are all brand new, typically very popular, and thus are a royal pain in the ass on which to get a tee-time (think Rustic Canyon) and the privates are well, private.

I've played Rustic Canyon about a dozen times. Sometimes with others who made a tee time, a few times when travelling to L.A. I've shown up at Rustic and been out within an hour or two. I don't see it as incredibly difficult. Did you know often times restaurants reviewers have to make reservations and sometimes wait for a table. They do this without announcing who they are.

Private, there should be a way for Golf Digest to get you on the course without making a fuss. They have access to a ton of pros, why not get some help from some of those PGA of America members.

So does PAYING for it, to be honest.

And as long as it is the course paying the tab, Golf Digest will never feel the need to pay for their rankings. Sure it makes them less honest, but what the heck. Again, that is the point of a piece like Geoff's, it points out the dishonesty of the rankings.

Dan, what you ought to do rather than picking on us wankuhs (and please do get that right if you are gonna invoke my son - you need the absolute correct pronunciation  ) is rail against the magazines for not having paid staffs and/or paying green fees for us.  Make that happen, man!

I agree. What are the odds they are ever going to do that if they have all of you willing to either pay or let the course you are covering pay? Perhaps a column like Geoff's increases the odds as people see that courses and architects are buying votes.

We're doing the best we can, following the established rules.  Perhaps lightening up might be in order?  Or at the very least, directing your ire at the right target?

That was the point of Geoff's piece that got some wankuhs upset.

Do food of movie critics pick up their own tabs?

Generally the publication picks up the tab.

Why do you expect golf course wankuhs to do so?

There are three choices:
1. The publication pays
2. The wankuhs pay
3. The course pays.

The obvious ideal situation would be No. 1. I've heard that isn't going to happen, leaving only two options. Of the two, if you want a legitimate review, better that wankuh pay than the course. If you leave it to the course to pay then you are stuck with conflict of interest charges.

If the lists are just a way to get a bunch of golfers to get free access and for the magazines to sell issues, then the system is working just fine.

Dan King
Quote
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
 --George Orwell

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2005, 11:58:09 AM »
Quote
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
 --George Orwell


"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." -- F. Scott Fitzgerald, in "The Crack-Up"

« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 11:58:50 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike_Cirba

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2005, 12:01:27 PM »
As in..

"Many hands make light work"

and

"Too many cooks spoil the broth"

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2005, 12:16:16 PM »
As in..

"Many hands make light work"

and

"Too many cooks spoil the broth"

I thought we were finished (for now) talking about Sebonack.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2005, 01:27:01 PM »
Dan:

OK, we're getting somewhere.  At least we can how take it as assumed that as improved as it would make the system, the magazines are not going to have paid staffs of raters.  That to me is progress here.

As for the rest, I guess I'm one of the ones you refer to as unable to do the job without identifying myself, as you state in the other thread.  I can live with it.  Why?  Well let's get at this using a specific course we both know.

Rustic Canyon:  oh sure, I too have played it several times since I first did the "rating" round; it is obviously not impossible to obtain a tee-time.  It is, however, VERY difficult to obtain when one has a tight deadline, and the realities of life to deal with.  Perhaps all raters ought to have no family or work commitments and do this full time; but I'm hoping you also acknowledge that that too is not reality.  The reality is that we do have other commitments, tight time schedules, and well in the case of Rustic Canyon, I had one available morning, it was at a very busy time, and it was either do it then or not do the rating at all, getting myself in hot water with the magazine, as well as depriving the world of my views.  I suppose you'd say I shouldn't have done it at all.  Maybe so.  I chose to ask a friend - Tommy Naccarato - to help me out and get me a tee time, which he did, through his tight connections with the management there.  So in so doing, I identified myself as a rater.   And yes, they did comp the round, a whole $35 or whatever.  I actually didn't know they were going to do that; when offered, I just figured it was polite to accept.  Dan please understand $35 is not going to change my life.  But of course, in a perfect world, none of this happens.  Can you begin to understand how the world is imperfect?

As for private clubs, come on man you are really reaching now.  Oh yeah, I know tons of PGA pros.  Just tons.  I believe my count is one, and no way do I hit him up to get me on golf courses.  Please.  That's silly.  Come on Dan, you just have to face it - if private clubs are to be rated/ranked, then we have to have a way to get on, and that's best done through the club.  I gather you understand how asking a friend implies even MORE obligation?  Or do I need to explain that?

This is the reality, Dan.  Guys like John V. - who as an employee of the local golf association needs not the help that a guy like me does - and/or guys with umlimited amounts of free time and money - well perhaps they can live to up to your standards.  I just have to believe there are a LOT of panelists like me who only have so much time and thus need the help.  I guess the next question is should guys like me be panelists.  We can discuss that later if you wish; I feel my real world experience makes me valuable, and I would question the worth of a panel made up with nothing but rich guys with nothing but time on their hands, to be honest.  But that can be explored if you wish.  I just want you to understand the reality of how this all works - you seem to be a little lost there.

In any case, you've rather sold me on the worth of Geoff's article a bit more - if he does get people thinking - or more importantly gets the magazines thinking - then that's great.  I just really don't see him doing that, as much as he is just ripping on GD specifically.  If this higher goal is his intent, then mea culpa - good for him.

In any case I also do like your bottom line summary.  There are three ways to do this.  #1 is the best, but it's not going to happen.  Thus we are left with the choice between 2 and 3.  In a perfect world choice 2 is followed.   But man, that's a lot to ask.  That would preserve the integrity of the system, but would also lead to many otherwise-worthy courses being ignored, as they were too expensive to do.  Seriously, how many restaurant raters are going to review French Laundry if they have to pay their own way?  Why are we expected to follow a HIGHER standard then they do?

TH


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2005, 01:46:15 PM »
With all this confusion of who should be one, and how a rater should present themselves, it causes me to wonder...

A rater ought to be a man of leisure - independently wealthy, very schooled in the history and styles of GCA, friend of architects everywhere, widely travelled, so aristocratic that all clubs would welcome him as a guest upon merely presenting himself ready for play that day, a man of letters, a man of insight, a perceptive man who appreciates nuance and detail, a man whose words precede him, a man published on multiple continents, a man among men... either Marion Hollins or Ran Morrissett. :o ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2005, 03:29:52 PM »
Dick, Your comedic timing is spotless. Bravo!

It is interesting that the solutions offered are so black and white.
It's just ridiculous to assume the magazine would pay the green fees. It's not ridiculous to ask the panelists. However, then you could just ask all your subscribers to rank the courses they've played, and everything would be hunky dorie. right?  No, that wont work either, your results will be more likely based on the bra size of the cart girl, rather than the architecture.

Internal audit controls should be in place to assist the leader of the panel, to uphold the respectability of the panel. Gauranteeing that the majority are really architecture enthusiasts, versus wankers with a badge.

In Geoffs argument he down plays the owners of these courses, What role do they play in this?  The article doesn't even mention them, and they would seem to have zero culpability in the whole practice. Aren't they the ones providing and paying for the schmooze, propogating the hope that my vote can be bought? Honestly, Anyone with any scruples(did I spell that correctly?) can see right through their attempts to hide the mediocrity of their GC.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 03:33:47 PM by Adam Clayman »

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2005, 04:47:24 PM »
Adam:

You've explained the issues well.  This all seems obvious to me.  But those who are against all of this don't seem to want to live in today's world.  That's cool; the world does need more Quixotes.

One thing though:  I'd say the ratings game needs MORE golfers and less architecture enthusiasts, or at least a healthy balance between the two; "architecture" being really one one component in what makes a course great.  If I want to know the greatness of a course, I want to know how it PLAYS, not how it is DESIGNED.  Most who can comment on the latter also can comment on the former, thankfully.  Just beware the man who studies more than he plays, as he is liable to forget these are fields of play far more than they are works of art.



« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 06:37:01 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2005, 07:50:40 PM »
From Dan's post:

Of course Golf Digest believes they can get away with their army of unpaid raters, knowing you are all getting paid by the golf courses.

May I retort? When am I getting paid by the golf course if I happen to be one of GD's raters? Come on, I might be partially with this crazy puritanical notion up until this point, but golf courses aren't paying raters. I'm not even sure what you mean by this Dan.
I am a big fan of Geoff's writing. I just thought this piece was very obvious and because of that it was a bit, well, boring. Maybe some will actually go to this GD event and think more carefully about golf architecture and their role in all of this. How can that possibly be a bad thing?
When does one stop fighting windmills, Dan, and understand the system isn't going away, but can be improved?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2005, 07:53:53 PM »

One thing though:  I'd say the ratings game needs MORE golfers and less architecture enthusiasts, or at least a healthy balance between the two; "architecture" being really one one component in what makes a course great.

You lost me on this one, Tom. Don't architecture enthusiasts typically also enjoy playing the course? Sure walking around it can help, but walking with a bag on your back is best, in my estimation. That said, in Canada I've met some GD raters (of which I'm one) that don't have a clue about what separates a good golf course from a mediocre one. I'm not sure if  a seminar with Ron Whitten will change that, but I can only hope. That way there's no repeat of The Rock as best new Canadian course.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

THuckaby2

Re:Shackelford Fireballs RANKERS
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2005, 09:14:35 PM »
Robert:

My point here is that if one takes this architectural enthusiasm too far - to the extent that he no longer plays the game - then he loses sight of what's most important about the game, the playing.  And there are plenty of participants on this site who if not at that state, are getting dangerously close to it.  I just think "architecture" is all well and good, but it's not the TOTALITY of what makes a course.

Look, I don't want a room full of dunces focusing on the cart girl to make these assessments either.  I just think that as is the case with most issues, the extremists are to be watched carefully.

It's really not a huge big deal or anything worth debating - it's just a strange take I have on these matters, which just came out in response to my friend Adam - a man who has all bases covered, playing and studying, if I ever knew one.

In any case on the bottom line we can agree:  I'd sure trust a guy who played a course over one who walked around it, and I also figure there are plenty of GD raters who don't have a clue.  

TH

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