Welsh Dream 18

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I've just received my up-to-date copy of the Welsh Tourist Board's excellent 'Golf as it should be.'  It's worth getting just for the photos (www.golfasitshouldbe.com).  One of the features is 'My Dream 18' by Peter Corrigan who writes for the Independent on Sunday.  They are:

1. Marriott St Pierre 576 yards par 5
2. Royal Porthcawl 477 yards par 4
3. Nefyn and District 397 yards par 4
4. Tenby 440 yards par 4
5. Pennard 165 yards par 3
6. Royal St David's 403 yards par 4
7. Rolls of Monmouth 526 yards par 5
8. Southerndown 419 yards par 4
9. Vale Hotel 387 yards par 4

10. Holyhead 478 yards par 5
11. Pyle and Kenfig 524 yards par 5
12. Aberdovey 149 yards par 3
13. Celtic Manor Wentwood Hills 395 yards par 4
14. Porthmadog 389 yards par 4
15. Ashburnham 471 yards par 4
16. Cardigan 195 yards par 3
17. Conwy 389 yards par 4
18. Northop Park 440 yards par 4

You could argue that he ought to have had another par 3 on the front nine, and many will argue against the inclusion of holes from modern courses (St Pierre, Rolls on Monmouth, Vale Hotel, Celtic Manor, Northop) but the selection does at least demonstrate many of the diverse strengths of Welsh golf.

Any comments from you who know Wales?  (I don't know Vale Hotel or Rolls personally).

[Tony_Muldoon]

I've posted this rant before but don't set any store by a list that includes The Vale as having anything good about it.  Wasted 3 days of my life there this spring a week before they played a Europro event there (at least the people I WAS WITH WERE MEMORABLE).

The reason why I haven’t played any links courses in Wales is because it takes upto SIX AND A HALF HOURS to play 18 holes here.  Ever got to the club house to be told trolleys are only allowed on the concrete cart path.  Any idea how long a walk it is following the cart path on the farside of the mounds that follow the outside of a 90 degree dogleg 490 yard par 4.  Because it was so wet we had to play from the ladies tees (pour quoi?) but you still have to walk all that way around the holes.  Course length is something like 7400 and you also have to cross roads.

If the advertising standards agency had any teeth this place would be called the VALE of Mud.   Here's an idea, build a course in Wales with no drainage. There are copies of other holes e.g. Belfry 10th & CM Wentwood Hills 2nd (that I recognised) and they are just inept. The whole thing is a second rate Celtic Manor built by the second richest man in Wales.  The main feature hole features a green 65 yards. ……..WIDE!   The 9thfeatures a blind tee shot with the green set below the fairway and that's all I can remeber about it. I understand the designer was a director of the company (who has since left) with only one other course to his name. Definitely Doak scale 0. LAst winter was officially dry with a shortage of rainfall!

If I do any good by posting on GCA it will be to keep the unsuspecting away from this place.  I feel a little calmer now, knowing I've discovered a new humanitarian mission in life.

The best thing about Celtic Manor was the jaw dropping view over the valley below from the 2nd green - I understand this is now going because it was one of the holes too easy for the pro's.  I think the one he’s chosen is a sharp dogleg where they took out a couple of trees to leave the option of going straight for a green that plays very narrow on a sloping hillside with a stream to the left.  Will be fun to see Sergio having a go.

[ForkaB]

Tony

Enough of the encomia.  Please tell us what you DIDN'T like about The Vale.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tony,  That's great!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mark, I wanted to bring this thread back, but before I respond I need to remember exactly the holes I want to include.  Welsh golf and especially Welsh links golf has a character and flavor all its own.  Like the Welsh language, Welsh golf is unabasehedy quirky and odd by either modern standards or even other British or Irish standards. I loved it. Give me a day to come up with some holes I'd like to add.  Cheers

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

I'm glad to see Tenby get a hole placed but the 4th -- although very good -- is not at the same level as the hole that precedes it -- the 382-yard 3rd. Frankly, the 3rd at Nefyn is also a solid hole but for sheer demands -- off the tee and onto the approach and putting the 3rd at Tenby rates the edge in my book.

One other thing -- how can one leave out the superb short 7th at Pennard? The par-3 5th at Pennard is simply dullsville.

Couple of other points -- the 13th at Celtic Manor is nothing more than a tired RTJ formula that's been done no less than a hundred times here in the States. How the existing Westwood Hills rates such a mention also escapes me. One can easily include the 13th at Royal Porthcawl -- a far superior hole in so many ways but it's likely the author wanted to keep no more than one hole per chosen course.

One other note -- the 11th at Pyle & Kenfig is a fine hole and likely the need for a par-5 to the chosen 18. However, I think the author missed out in throwing on board the par-3 15th there.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean, et al:

What surprises me is how little is ever mentioned on the qualities of the first four holes at Tenby?

There is no weakness in that quartet and when you face #1 & #2 into the wind you need to be ready to go at the outset.

The 3rd at Tenby could also be a very strong candidate for par-4's that fall between 350-400 yards in all of the UK & Ireland.

Clearly, the holes selected followed some sort of limitations with no more than one per course. Pennard could easily have more than one choice -- although the deadly dull par-3 5th at Pennard is simply filler.

Sean:

Portchcawl is also deserving of a few choices. Like I said before the par-4 13th is solid and one could make a very good case with the par-4 16th too.

The 18th is more of a scenic closer than high on my list for the strategic choices presented. Northop isn't that bad of a choice.

P.S.

Does anyone know if a final routing scheme has been determined for the 2010 Ryder Cup site at Westwood Hills at Celtic Manor?

[Tony_Muldoon]

This thread has poped up agiain a couple of times and each time I figure someones trying to set me off again.

I've been musing on Mr Corrigan and how he could have penned such a piece.  I'm sure he's familiar with the quote atributed to Dobriener to another journalist which goes something like "By all means drink their wine and f*** their women but on no account play their bloody courses."

Maybe I've underestimated him, the 9th is the highest hole on the course and the only one you could actually see from a Suite at the hotel!  It's journalism, but it's not what the indy started out to be!

[Matt_Ward]

I'm kind of surprised no holes from the relatively new Nicklaus design in Wales were included.

Is the course thought highly of by those who frequent courses in Wales or is it just another Americanized version of golf?

Sean:

I believe the ending sequence at Tenby -- the holes across the tracks lowers the overall assessment for many. Like I said the first four holes really put the test to you right away. I also believe the Doak number in Confidential Guide is a bit lower than it should be.