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T_MacWood

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2005, 11:20:20 AM »
"....and I would like to discover who did what."

Tom MacW:

Would you like to discover if it was OTM or someone else who did crossing holes there for any particular reason you can share with us?



Are you asking if there is a grand scheme behind my question? The answer would be no. What OTM did or didn't do is a fresh topic from one or more ongoing threads...this an extension of those.

I suspect OTM had nothing to do with either routing, but I'm not certain and I would like to know the answer. I'm hoping someone familiar with the history of those courses might know the answer.

Why are you interested?

A few other questions I'd like to answer:

* What were Stanley Thompson's inspirations
* Raynor's routing for CPC
* Why MacKenzie was excluded at Pebble Beach
* What happened to Jim Thorpe's medals
* Who designed Princess Ann GC
* Details regarding Hotchkin's activities in South Africa
* Foulpoint

Hadji be praised.

888
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 11:21:09 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2005, 06:30:06 PM »
"I suspect OTM had nothing to do with either routing, but I'm not certain and I would like to know the answer. I'm hoping someone familiar with the history of those courses might know the answer."

Tom MacW:

What leads you to suspect that? And what then do you suppose he was asked to do on those courses?

Do you think the perceived quality or lack of it on some of the courses OTM is believed to have worked has anything to do with the amount of time he spent on them or what he was actually asked to do?

T_MacWood

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2005, 10:22:59 PM »
Hutchison's description of the earlier years at Westward Ho! leads me to believe he had nothing to do with the routing and Prestwick's history claims OTM was brought in to complete the laying out the course and to be keeper of the greens. That sounds likes a golf course was there when he arrived. On the other hand he did spend quite a few years at Prestwick, so who knows.

I think there are number of factors including the amount of time. He has been credited (and blamed) for designing courses he simply gave his blessing...County Down as an example. Or courses he was simply advising on how best keep the green...a green that was already in service.

I don't think we have good understanding what was going on in those early days...locals bitten by the golf bug laying out links but strugling to keep them up. Who was the first to actually offer his services to design a golf course, as opposed to advice on how to keep the course in reasonably good golfing condition?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 07:00:49 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2005, 07:46:00 AM »
Tom MacWood:

#29 is a very good post. That last paragraph asks a fundamental question or two about that very early time and what's known about it---or even how much we could ever know about some of the details of it at this point---and it certainly asks the very important question of how well we can understand it.

That's precisely why I feel Cornish & Whitten in their tome "The Architects of Golf" treated that era, and also Old Tom Morris (the architect) so well and so logically, albeit quite generally. After-all, how much detail can one get into when trying to explain the entire history and evolution of golf architecture in only 169 pages (Part One)?

That's precisely why I think it's so difficult to say at this point if OTM was a good golf architect or not. In other words, how much can he be given credit for if he only spent a day or two at a golf course? And conversely how much can he be blamed for?

Understanding that fact better, one could logically say that Prestwick should be different from Westward Ho! as its architecture relates to OTM. After-all OTM actually worked at Prestwick as a professional, club-maker, greenkeeper? etc. That was a period of years (app 14 years). Was he working on that course architectually then? But how much time did he spend at Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!)---a day, two days?

Let's say he had nothing to do with the routing at Westward Ho!. Let's say he may've advised them on bunkering or bunker placement or something like that. What could we suppose he did that way---stake areas for bunkers? We certainly can be pretty sure he didn't do any architectural drawings as that was many years away.

So how might we suppose he advised on something like bunkering or even perhaps green placement or construction? Perhaps he drew some lines on the ground. But when the ditch diggers and laborers came to dig the bunkers or make the greens where was Morris? Obviously back at TOC where he worked.

What if the laborers didn't notice the lines on the ground and just built something that looked like a rectangular ditch in front of the common steeplechase jump? Or what if the lines he drew on the ground blew away? What were they to do then, call him up and ask him where they were supposed to be? See what I mean?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 07:50:16 AM by TEPaul »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2005, 08:06:02 AM »
Stonewall north course has crossings holes, sort of speak...

once you leave the 14th green, there is a tee left of the green that makes you play your tee shot at 15th over the 14th green and fairway.

It's probably not really used.

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2005, 10:13:34 AM »
Rolling Road, the Willie Park Jr course in Catonsville, MD, has crossing holes where the tee shot is played directly over the previous green - a fairly dangerous situation absent a good sense of course awareness and golfing etiquette.

If a private course like RR  were planning a renovation, would it be advisable to remove this feature - even if it meant losing some yardage on an already short course? Or - on a course that's already fairly short by modern standards, would it be wise to create a crossing hole to improve shot values and gain a little yardage?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 10:15:38 AM by Craig Disher »

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2005, 12:32:05 PM »
Just in the interest of accuracy, the 3rd and 16th at Alwoodley did not originally cross.  Both MacKenzie's drawing (of unknown date, but presumably between 1907 and 1910) and HA Chapman's of 1910 show the 3rd tee set behind the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg on the 16th. However,  MacK's drawing shows a bunker where the present back tee on the 3rd is, and could easily be mistaken for a tee at a quick glance, and Chapman's map has a ditch running from that same point and could also be mistaken for the line on the 3rd.  

The holes do cross today, and so do the 7th and 8th when played from the championship tees.

There are several crossing holes at Royal Worlington.

In my locality, the 1st at Wilmslow is played from an elevated tee across a valley in which is sited the 18th green.  There are umpteen crossing holes at diminutive Avro, a 9-hole course at the end of the main runway at BAE Woodford.  The 2nd and 5th at Bidston cross (and those of you who play at Wallasey will get a good view of this course from the motorway).  At Caldy, the 3rd drive is made directly over the 10th green and, as that 3rd is a 389-yard dog-leg which can be driven by powerful players), those taking on the challenge very nearly drive over those standing on the 10th tee, too. Cheadle (a club founded in 1885, and, therefore, the second oldest surviving club in Cheshire) moved to its present site in 1895 and this layout was by one R. Renouf (one of the Jersey School, I presume) and on this the 173-yard 2nd is played across the 1st green to a green in the middle of the 3rd fairway.  The 95-yard 5th is also played across the 4th green and 6th fairway.  It is what you might call a compact course!

On several holes at 9-hole Congleton the tee shot is played over the previous green, the 3rd over the 2nd, the 5th over the 4th, the 6th over the 5th and 9th over the 8th and there are also 3 sets of alternative greens to further complicate matters.  There are several crossing holes at 18-hole Crewe, rather a nice course in the coutryside outside one of our least attractive towns.  James Braid laid out Disley (another club going back to the 1880s) on hilly ground with the 2nd and 3rd crossing.  Crossing holes abound at Dukinfield which is laid out on a very small acreage in the Mancunian suburbs.  The guide books will tell you that it is only 5303 yards and sss of 66 for its 18 holes, yet it includes a 592-yard par 5!  There are many memorable holes.  There were crossing holes at Eastham Lodge a cunning Hawtree design on a very restricted site.  I have not been there for many years and I think some redesign has taken place, which may or may not have removed the crossing holes.  Charming little Hale has a crossing at one of the most interesting parts of the round down on the banks of the River Bollin (3rd and 4th).  The 2nd hole at Heaton Moor crosses the 3rd and 5th fairways and with the 2nd tee set back in the trees it's quite dangerous.  The club professional for many years was CT Chevalier who held a world record for the number of holes-in-one in his career, 31, several of which were achieved on the first here, a 265-yard dog-leg par 4 which he would have had to have played blind over trees (although they are obviously much higher now).  Heaton Moor's 18th is also quirky, with a clipped hedge crossing the fairway 10 yards in front of the 18th green at the back of which stands the clubhouse wall.  The 1st and 2nd at Helsby (another Braid layout) cross.  The biscuit for crossing holes in Cheshire must be taken by Marple with a really dangerous intersection of the 16th and 18th holes (405 and 517 yards respectively) with people driving blind over trees, hedges and ditches to far distant fairways which cross in the landing zones.  The 16th also crosses the 1st green and the 3rd is crossed by the 4th and 9th.  The views are superb.  With the insertion of a more modern 17th at MacKenzie's Reddish Vale there is now one crossing hole (the 16th crossing the 17th).  At Stamford (a very characterful course in the hills about Stalybridge) the 4th is played across the 1st and 2nd, and also up in the hills 9-hole Werneth Low has crossing holes at the 6th and 7th. (I believe two extra holes have been opened to make this an 11-hole course - unusual, if not unique).  Widnes had some crossing holes, but I believe they are moving from that rather restricted site.  At Wirral Ladies (on hand for the Buda Cup) the 1st crosses the 18th and the 5th and 15th cross in a scissors movement.  

If there are so many crossing holes in Cheshire (100 or so courses) it is probably a reasonable assumption that there are a proportionate number in many other counties.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 12:34:50 PM by Mark_Rowlinson »

TEPaul

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2005, 05:17:20 PM »
Craig:

Frankly, I wouldn't call a hole that has a back tee that sort of crosses over the preceeding green a crossing hole. That kind of thing can work just fine on courses like private ones that don't have a ton of play or a hole that crosses over the preceding green where golfers don't tend to wait to tee off.

It's funny how when most anyone looks at something like that on paper or are just told about it they tend to freak out thinking someone's gonna get killed but if you think about it 99.9% of the time there will be noone near that preceding green before the group ahead has teed off and gone.

But generally when you find holes like that you can be pretty certain the reason it's that way is what one may call fairly "super-maxed out elasticity!"  ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 05:21:50 PM by TEPaul »

Alfie

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2005, 10:26:29 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Not only do you raise an interesting question here, but one of some intrigue as well ?
Primarily, I can’t answer your initial question – and I don’t think ANYONE can ! So my belated contribution to this thread is pure opinion and guess-timation.

The “Crossing Holes” syndrome in early golf architecture (say, pre 1890) could be put down to several factors ;
Health & Safety was not a consideration !
Space and location (for the course) was often restricted !
Golfing traffic on the courses was sparse  !
Analysis of course architecture just didn’t come into it !
Of course, golf course architects DID exist and here’s a small sample of their names ;
Wullie, Peter, Tam, Jimmy, Sandy, Angus, Hamish, Fergus, etc……

I suppose we should address Space & Location first ? Obviously, the exploitation of the “Inland” game had barely begun (even though a few inland courses did exist) and therefore, golf, was somewhat restricted to the finer natural fescue’s of the seaside links. Many of these area’s were also under the umbrella of “common ground” and could be easily accessed by those who wished to play golf. The laying out of the actual course involved finding 3 – 12 different locations to cut and site – a hole ! Voila ! You have a golf course ! Thereafter, the locals muck in and gradually tidy up the weeds (thistles & nettles) en route to each hole.
Once we progress into the 90’s and the great expansion of golf, things become a bit better organised and methodical. 9 or 18 hole layouts have become fashionable (almost STANDARDISED) and inland courses are now a practical consideration ! Location is now far more commodious thanks to the mowing machines and rail transport, whereas space, is still at a premium for many new courses of the day !
 
sketch circa 1895. loadsa hazards ????

The health & safety aspect of these crossing holes became clearly evident around the start of the 20th century when the sport was in lift off mode. The courses were getting busier and  busier, and it soon became evident that crossing over was hazardous to life and limb ! Many accidents were occurring and “slow play” was becoming a nuisance and distraction for the modern golfer. Huh, they had accidents back then – now ‘we’ have litigation !

Naturally, with fewer golfers on the course, there were fewer chances of hitting a fellow golfer at a crossing hole, or anywhere else for that matter !

Analysis of architecture came through common sense ! People then had a tendency to look back and learn from their mistakes. This was identifiable through the insurgence of the golf course architect during the booming 90’s who became a recognised figure for the laying out and improvement of golf courses ! Wullie, Peter, Tam etc.. fell into near extinction !

And the relevance of all this compared to modern standards ? SPACE !
Maybe the cross over hole is the future of golf course architecture ? That wouldn’t surprise me at all !
Anyway, that’s MY understanding of early golf….. in abbreviated fashion.


Best regards,

Alfie

TEPaul

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2005, 12:48:55 PM »
Alfie:

I doubt any of us should look too hard for specific reasons and certainly not specific architectural reasons why many of the very early courses (particularly the very early ones outside the Scottish linksland) had crossing holes. I say that because the real reason things were like that back then is probably that there were no real specific reasons or specific architectural reasons, that being because golf and certainly architecture back then outside the linksland was in such a state of infancy. In my opinion, even some of the very early linksland courses in Scotland that basically completely preceded man-made architecture probably had no real rhyme or reason for how they evolved other than what one might call "natural paths of least resistance". Even the wholly natural "swards" of festuca and agrostis against the natural blowout sand dunes and things such as roads probably dictated those "paths of least resistance" of how holes and whole courses came to be formed. I don't think we should attempt to assign much architectural thought to some of these very early courses because it obviously didn't exist back then and particularly in some areas. The 1880s and 1890s are earlier in this way then some of us seem to think.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 01:02:51 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2005, 01:22:19 PM »
Tom:

When we designed an "open site" at The Sheep Ranch and gave people the chance to play anywhere they want to, the results are that people tend to gravitate back to certain greens they like, playing across other holes to get there.

I would bet that's how it evolved at Prestwick, too ... not so much from one architect as from a consensus of good players about which were the most interesting holes to play.

TEPaul

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2005, 01:58:12 PM »
".....and gave people the chance to play anywhere they want to, the results are that people tend to gravitate back to certain greens they like, playing across other holes to get there."

TomD:

Precisely! The only probable difference in the linksland pre-man-made architecture (before the 19th century) is it seems most all those almost wholly natural Scottish linksland courses by the sea were very narrow. And the reason that was generally so is pretty obvious too.

Alfie

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2005, 02:17:16 PM »
Tom,

"natural paths of least resistance". ?

Hell bunker comes to mind ?

I think you're right in most of what you say, but I would encourage the 'search for reasoning' - just so long as everybody doing the searching is keeping their feet firmly on the ground. Embellishment of any historical data immediately creates lies, and there's been enough of that through the ages ! However, we all know that this special place (gca.com) is clean of such activity (I think ?)

"had no real rhyme or reason for how they evolved..." exactly Tom. But I would insert the word "virtually" between had... and... no ?

The problem with finding specific answers to these early related questions is the lack of hard factual matter. I've gone through a few early (1890's) minute books looking for course details, only to find the written emphasis concentrated on the "Annual Dinner" / who would entertain at the next soiree / who won the latest Medal comp etc... Bloody annoying, but that's what they've left us. They obviously didn't foresee information seekers of architectural features at the likes of gca.com ! ;)

More important though - I've noticed your use of the word "understanding" (and rightly so) and I think that is crucial to where we're taking golf now and in the future. If we don't understand, or want to understand the past, then any future can only be riddled with "uncertainty" as opposed to knowing our past and thereby eliminating at least some part of that uncertainty. There's many things where that philosophy doesn't apply - but I do believe it can be applied to golf ! Make sense ?

This thread on "Crossing holes" contains an early lesson for golfers, viz ; they are a hazard you don't want and bloody dangerous, especially on undulating ground ! They KNEW / LEARNED that back in the 1890's and started eliminating these problems as best they could before and, more so, after the Haskell ! That is a fact, btw.

And the biggest problem of all - who really wants to understand in the first place ? For golf in general, I'd say about 3% of the golfing population, if it's that many ? Just as well we've got leaders to understand these things and protect us from harm ?

Alfie.
ps ; check your e-mail. I tried to paste a sketch in my previous post - and failed ! Maybe you could do the honours ?

Alfie

Re:Crossing Holes
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2005, 03:15:27 PM »
Tom Doak said  ; "I would bet that's how it evolved at Prestwick, too ... not so much from one architect as from a consensus of good players about which were the most interesting holes to play. "

I would bet that's pretty close to being right, Tom ! Perhaps Wullie, Peter, Tam etc ? :)

Alfie

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