To hell with fairways!!

[JESII]

The FLOGGING thread, and specifically the darwinism remark, got me thinking about whether or not I have ever wanted to be in the rough after a tee shot.

Not counting the fact that we might all like to be in the first cut for certain shots, are there any specific holes which offer their best approach from the rough? Whether it's due to the hazards along a certain length of fairway, or a green setup that favors an area of non-fairway significantly for the best approach, wheris it, and is this a good thing?

Just thinking quickly the only hole I can come up with might be the 7th at Gulph Mills Golf Club just outside of Philadelphia.

For those that do not know the hole it is a short par 5 with the green hidden just behind the right corner of a small quarry. I might have missed some renovation work here so call me on it if I'm wrong as of now but as of August 2000 there were also several large trees in the area of rough between the green and the quarry. This setup in effect forced a big right-to-left approach from any more than about 100 yards. What makes this hole fit this criteria in my book is the fact that the fairway slopes very sharply from right-to-left bringing most every ball hit into it down to the left corner which forces an almost impossible shot to actually hit the green. With the hole being only 470 or so one really feels the desire to play the hole aggressively but the fairway slope and green complex make that very difficult.

One alternative however would be to drive up into the right hand rough and although one would sacrifice distance you would gain a tremendous advantage with the angle. The hole will play longer this way, but possibly much less risky.

Are there any others?

[Doug Siebert]

I like to play from the rough when I'm playing to a top tier, because I can play a lazy 3/4 shot with a shallow approach to deliberately clog up the clubface with grass and get it it to land on the low tier and just run on up.  I can't play to that kind of pin from a closely cut fairway to save my life.  I'll either land it short or on the upslope and have it come back, or I'll go long and be worrying about the possibility of hitting my par putt from the lower tier.

If the fairways are really wet its good to play from the rough also, because a slightly fat shot from muddy fairways doesn't even reach the green, but do the same shot from wet grass the flyer effect perfectly cancels out the fat effect so a bad shot gets much better results than it deserves

Heck, with my driving I'm in the rough more often than Tiger so I really wouldn't complain all that much if they just stopped mowing fairways at all if it meant I could save a few bucks on greens fees and wouldn't have to see those ugly cart paths and watch them make my bad drives worse!  With the FLOG game on the PGA tour and narrowing fairways this is the logical conclusion, and you know that once the PGA starts playing with zero yard wide fairways 90% of the courses in the US will follow suit.  However, this would make sprinkler heads much harder to locate, so this must be the real reason behind allowing GPS and laser measurement devices.

[ForkaB]

I remember following Nicklaus and Watson at a Crosby in the late 70's at Spyglass, and both of them drove into the right rough on the 18th.  I thought "Now, this is strange--the two best golfers in the world and they both slice it off the tee!"  Until, of course we got to their balls and saw that the pin was way back left, and the rough was light and they were in position A to go for the pin.  Those guys were good, even 25+ years ago.....

[Michael Hayes]

Better question:  if there's a hole where being in the rough is preferred, is that a design flaw?  Shouldn't that be fairway?

The 17th at Bandon Dunes WAS a hole that the left rough was the garden spot because it took the ravine down the right out of play and opened up the angle to that very severe green.  They went in made the area fairway and added a half dozen bunkers right where I always aimed

[JESII]

Better question:  if there's a hole where being in the rough is preferred, is that a design flaw?  Shouldn't that be fairway?

That was essentially the question I was trying to ask.

The example of #7 at Gulph Mills is one in which you would sacrifice 10 - 30 yards in favor of a better line to the green. The absolute ideal spot would probably be the first cut of rough on the right, but because of the severe right to left slope it's virtually impossible to get it there. If it gets there it probably gets well down into the fairway. From the middle of the fairway you must hook your approach 20 or 30 yards just to catch the green. Missing the green right is no bargain by the way, so there is a real decision to be made.

I don't know if that's a flaw or not, I was hoping to figure it out with some other examples and thoughts. Do you think it's a flaw?

[Brent Hutto]

There's a hole at my soon-to-be-former home course where with a certain breeze the preferred spot for getting to a back left pin is beyond the right rough along the edge of a wooded, swampy lateral hazard hitting off a bare lie. Strong male players can drive it beyond a right-hand fairway bunker and have a easy wedge out of the rough but shorter hitters settle for being short of the bunker on the hardpan.

At last years women's collegiate tournament there, all the girls were aiming for that side. The only two birdies made all day were basically recovery approach shots from the junk over there just a couple yards from the red stakes. Now that was an unusual combination of a non-prevailing wind and an extreme hole location but it probably smacks of bad design when 0 for 50 or so girls make par and bogey from the fairway and 2 for 20 make birdie from way over in the junk.

[JESII]

Brent,

You've mentioned that hole before and I never asked, would the hole be better if that area were cut as fairway? Do I remember there being a pond there that could be taken advantage of as a lure to get into Position A?

[THuckaby2]

#12 The Old Course.  Each of the caddies swore up and down the best place was the right rough, short of the gorse bushes.  Why?  Because none of us could hit the 250+ carry required to clear all the fairway bunkers, and by their reckoning it was too much of a crap shoot to even screw with them.  The rough over there was light... I have to admit 70 yards or so in from there was not at all a hard shot, and allowed a pretty risk-free tee shot.  Here's a description/diagram/picture from the official website:

http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_guide2004/old_course_hole_guide_12.html

Caddies also figured right rough was better than left fairway - the left side meant a blind shot over the course for the pitch.

I did kinda feel like I was cheating going right though.  Next day I aimed center.  You got it - in a bunker, had to pitch out sideways.  That on a pretty damn well-hit tee shot also.

TH

[JESII]

Would the hole be better if......that rough area to the right were cut as fairway?.....that rough area to the right were let to grow as unplayable gorse?......it were left alone for those of you who figure out that it is in fact an easier way to play the hole? Or at least pay the caddies that have figured it out for you.

Seriously though, would you change anything about the hole considering what you saw, played and felt?

[THuckaby2]

Great questions.

1.  The caddies gave me no new information; rather they just confirmed an inkling I already had and gave me the confidence to go ahead and try it.

2.  I still do think it's "cheating" so some extent.  Hell there is a way to play the hole conservatively - just stay short of the FIRST set of bunkers and leave oneself a longer shot in.  It just takes a lot of fortitude/score slavery to do that.

3.  Thus I think the hole is perfect as is and I wouldn't change a thing.  No way I make that right side either better or worse.  It's their as an option for those of us who can't bring ourselves to lay WAY back, but that doesn't mean it should be fairway... It should be an avenue taken only rather shamefully, if that makes any sense.

BTW, all of this matters only into the wind.  Eliminate that or turn it around and it's bombs away baby - go for the green.  Of course it's still not an easy shot and bunkers or gorse can still be one's fate, but it is very fun.

TH

[JESII]

Thanks for the link Tom, it looks as though there is a risk of OB by going right, is that correct?

Obviously a left to right wind would increase the value of being on that right side, but it also increases the risk of a ball reaching the road. As the courses reputation holds, it seems the sides of this hole are much better than playing straight in the middle. How wide would you say the area between the two patches of gorse left and right is?

[THuckaby2]

Thanks for the link Tom, it looks as though there is a risk of OB by going right, is that correct?

Obviously a left to right wind would increase the value of being on that right side, but it also increases the risk of a ball reaching the road. As it's reputation holds, it seems the sides of this hole are much better than playing straight in the middle. How wide would you say the area between the two patches of gorse left and right is?

JES - I'm not 100% certain - we need Mr. Goodale for this (he's very literally righting the book that would answer all of these questions), but I believe its about 25-30 yards between the gorse bushes.  So tight but not outrageously so - it's a doable shot.  As for OB, the road doesn't define it I don't think - I think the ball is in play all the way to the beach - follow the shore to the right out of the picture.

TH

[JESII]

Goodale is waiting in the bar at Dornoch for me to call in the drink(s) I lost to him in a Tom Paul milestone bet yesterday. He did however make an incredibly valiant effort.

At about 2:30 East Coast time I sent him an offer of a bet that he could entice TEP over the 20,000 post mark with a couple implications in the North American Architecture thread. I immediately logged off and not on again for 5 or 6 hours. When I got back on I was hysterically laughing for a solid 15 minutes at the 4 threads he created within 15 minutes of my offer. Fireball Roberts...Goodale/Hanse...1960 debutantes...and centerline bunkers![/color] And the son of a gun sniffed him out immediately.

[THuckaby2]

AHA!

I knew there had to be something behind all of those.  I first thought Rich had just dipped a bit too heavily into the cooking sherry, as they say.  Now DUH... it all makes sense.

So OK, if and when he returns, well he can also solve our issues re #12.  The man is rather necessary around here.

 

[JESII]

Oh, no question, he was drunk . He just had a little motiviation as well.

[ForkaB]

Jim

You should know by now that I don't live in Dornoch.  Amazing how many people on this site think this is so, most of them from Philadelphia.  Every few months I get a call from the club saying saying "Mr. So and So from Merion is at the bar drinking himself silly and wants to meet you.  Shall I tell him you live in Aberdour, or just keep pouring him large Macallans?"  I usually say "Humo(u)r him, but don't let him charge to my tab!"

AS for the 12th at the Old Course, well it is wide as Huckaby's bottom at the 230 wimp-out distance--probably at least 100 yards.  Wimping out right is better than wimping out left, but you still have to hit a really good 70-yard shot to have any chance of getting close if the pin is on the top level and the ground is firm and fast.  Far better (if you are man enough) is to tee it high and let it fly, either with a 3-wood to avoid the bunker 30 yards short of the green, or a driver if you are feeling lucky.

And, as Bela Lugosi once famously said:

"I don't drriinnkkkk.  VViiiinnne..........."

[THuckaby2]

 

Richard-  allow me to get one thing straight, which of course was posted already but you somehow seem to have missed:  my wimp out distances and the decision to go right were based on hitting INTO THE WIND.  You do understand the effect that can have, I trust?

You will note I also said:

BTW, all of this matters only into the wind.  Eliminate that or turn it around and it's bombs away baby - go for the green.  Of course it's still not an easy shot and bunkers or gorse can still be one's fate, but it is very fun.

My manhood is intact.

 

But hey, answer Sully's question, will ya?  How far apart are the gorse bushes up just short of the bunker 30 yards short of the green?  And how much in play is OB or hazard right (if at all)?

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

I was thinking of into the wind.  From the front tees (where you likely played) it is a 2-3 iron downwind.

The distance between the gorse bushes looks like about 50-60 yards, but don't quote me!

[THuckaby2]

Rich:

Well then you big heep man stud. But of course having seen you play, I know otherwise.  

I did play pretty far back on the tee pad the last time over.  Luckily that's where they put the tees we were to play, both days.  The shot I faced was 200 to clear bunkers, 230 to stay short comfortably short of the next set, 250 to comfortably clear both - and then add in the random factor of how those are faced.  Into a quite strong wind, well the idea of going right seemed to make very good sense.  But I like playing against "men" like you - your insecurities typically mean you reach for your wallet at the end.

 

Look at the diagram anyway - that doesn't look like 50-60 yards across.  I sure don't remember it that way also.  Don't you have that type of measurement in what I assume (based on the Dornoch book) are the very cool pictures and diagrams in the TOC book?

TH

[ForkaB]

Tom

It's 50+ yards gorse-to-gorse.  Trust me!  You can even see it from the oblique shot you linked to.  The opening is more than 1/2 the size of the 100+ yard wide 6/12 double geen.  It might have looked narrower to you given the way you spray the ball off the tee.  Short and wild, how in hell do you keep that 6.3 index anyway.  You must have adopted the CLAW(tm).......

[THuckaby2]

 

It is tough to be me.  And heck, since you've said many times how you can play with the pros, and since you see me as a 6.3 index which has to translate to at least an 8 handicap over there, I'd say we need to play a match soon, and of course you'd give me the appropriate 10 strokes.  Try to go easy on me.  But oh yeah, do bring your wallet.  

But thanks for the correction re #12.  It has been awhile since I've been there, and I was basing things on the diagram.  Surely I didn't recall that 6/12 combined was 100 yards wide - wow.

And yes, I did just call you Shirley.

 

[JESII]

Sorry to have ducked out of this conversation for a while.

A couple questions:

If the distance from gorse left to gorse right = the size of Huckaby's bottom does that warrant a new name for that bunker at about 30 yards? Taking suggestions!
-Huckaby's hole
-Tom's trough

Rich,

Will there be a code word for the barman when it's me slurring to him and I'm ready to pay up on these couple of bets you've won? How about Missy Leatherbottom?

[THuckaby2]

Gosh I'm having a lot of things named after me lately.  I am indeed honored.  I prefer Huckaby's Hole.  Too many Toms around here and we'd hate to get things confused.

 

[TEPaul]

"And the son of a gun sniffed him out immediately."

I didn't want to have to tell you but I'm six steps ahead of you birds at all times. AT ALL TIMES!  

On a lighter note, you'll have to come over and see the 7th at GMGC, it's not the same as it was in 2000. Much better now. If you ask me there're a number of places at my course where the better angle is probably in the rough. I don't think it's a huge deal but better nonetheless. Unfortunately that lughead Donald Ross may've missed some of those ideal angles.

Of course there's the 16th at Pacific Dunes that Ran discovered by far the best angle to approach the green is right where some irrigation box or whatever is way out in the left rough. And we can't forget that Ran also discovered that a part of the 14th and 15th At Sand Hills that's now in rough should have fairway melded together for an interesting angle both ways. Ran was going to ask Bill Coore if he realized that by not melding those two fairways together in that spot he completely blew what otherwise could've been a world class golf course. I think Ran thought I'd freak out or something but I said; "Oh no, that would be a great question to ask him." I'll have to ask him if he's asked Bill that question yet.

Another area of rough that would be an ideal angle of approach is behind the 4th green at your own couse--HVGC. Put that areaa behind #4 in fairway (well maybe I should say a fairway length tee) and you'd have an ideal angle of approach to the 5th green. Of course you'd have to remove a considerable amount of trees too, but that's no big deal!

Approaching the 18th green at PVGC from the lower parking lot would be a great angle too. I know that's not in rough, but what the hell it probably was at some point and when you have a great angle like that who the hell needs a lower parking lot? Oh, I know, I know, you're wondering how someone would get down there from the present tees. Don't worry about that for now---I'll work that out and get back to you.

[JESII]

"And the son of a gun sniffed him out immediately."

I didn't want to have to tell you but I'm six steps ahead of you birds at all times. AT ALL TIMES!  

On a lighter note, you'll have to come over and see the 7th at GMGC, it's not the same as it was in 2000. Much better now. If you ask me there're a number of places at my course where the better angle is probably in the rough. I don't think it's a huge deal but better nonetheless. Unfortunately that lughead Donald Ross may've missed some of those ideal angles.

Another area of rough that would be an ideal angle of approach is behind the 4th green at your own couse--HVGC. Put that areaa behind #4 in fairway and you'd have an ideal angle of approach to the 5th green. Of course you'd have to remove a considerable amount of trees too!
Why would that be a better angle than either of the two tee angles currently in place?

Approaching the 18th green at PVGC from the lower parking lot would be a great angle too. I know that's not in rough, but what the hell it probably was at some point and when you have a great angle like that who the hell needs a lower parking lot? Oh, I know, I know, you're wondering how someone would get down there from the present tees. Don't worry about that for now---I'll work that out and get back to you.
Hell, at that think about the approach to the 4th green at PV from the parking lot/firing range. And that one could very well be reached from the tee with proper curb height on the driveway down from the tee. The trouble would be stopping the ball in that little patch of turf in the middle there.