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Gene Greco

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Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« on: November 14, 2005, 03:05:54 PM »
   It's a week later and I still can't get this course out of my mind. Kelly Blake Moran is the archy and the course hit me hard and hasn't let go. Has anybody played this place?????

Four straight weekends playing Shinnecock, NGLA, Winged Foot West and finally Laurel Links.

The firmest, fastest and best conditioned of all was...... I couldn't believe it either - Laurel Links. Actually was the best conditioned course I played this year.

Bill Shuford is the super and where he came from I don't know but they ought to triple his salary!

The course was a roller coaster ride of fun from start to finish.
We "oohed" and "aahed" on every tee box as we viewed each new challenge presented all on a very non-descript piece of land. The greens are reminiscent of Deepdale's - big, fast with humps and whalebacks.

Innovative approaches off the tee, to and around the greens I had never seen before.

Strantz came to mind.

Among the Mercedes Benzs "waltzing" in the ballroom this course is the Cadillac Escalade which enters that commercial at the end.

Bold and refreshing with more details to come.
 
 
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Jason Blasberg

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 03:44:47 PM »
  It's a week later and I still can't get this course out of my mind. Kelly Blake Moran is the archy and the course hit me hard and hasn't let go. Has anybody played this place?????

I just played it for the first time this past Saturday and with a little wind it was all the course I could handle.  I was shocked that I hadn't heard more about it before.  

My only criticism is the housing that is prominent and an eye soar and detracts from the overall experience.  However, it is not in play on any hole (unless you wildly snap hook it on 2, 10 or 17) and save the 9th you really don't face any housing while playing.

Having recently played Tobacco Road the greens did remind me of TR.  They had incredible movement, most had at least three or more greens within a green (save 10 green which only had about 3 possible placements on the right half as the left half was too sloped to accomodate a pin).  

I was reminded of Prairie Dunes in a number of places, especially the benched greensite for the 3 par 5th.  

The short 14th (115 yds or so) was the best short hole I've played in a great while with a large thumb print swale in the front middle and a false front that makes holding a ball short of a front middle pin very difficult.

The dunes and hills flow naturally over the property even though I understand most if not all of the undulation was created.  

There was a ton of risk reward off the tee and even more on and around the greens.  There were many times where playing at the pin was not the ideal play but then there were others where it was the only realistic option to make par.  For instance, the pins on 12 and 15 were tucked back right and left respectively, atop small back shelves in the green and if you didn't play toward the pins and challenge the bunkering protecting these locations you had at least 40 feet up slopes ranging from 5 to 10 feet or so.  I played away from both pins and had two three putt bogeys (and still had lots of fun at that).

The cart paths are sand based and play as an integral part of the course and both times on them I putted off them (once to 10 feet and one to 6 inches).

It's a fun walk and the routing flows well.  Overall, it was a great experience that I must say was not really expected (not for anything but lack of discussion about the course).  

In closing, it was the firmest and fastest course I've played this year and the greens were at worst tied for the best conditioned I've played this year.  In fact, they were almost a little too fast in certain places and could easily create a ton of challenge rolling at 9.5 (I'd say they were rolling at about 11 or so when I played).    

If you're anywhere near LI try to make it out to see Laurel Links.  You won't be disappointed.  

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 03:47:24 PM »
Dr.,

Kelly mentioned to me recently that LL had really grown in nicely since I played with Geoffrey during the Spring of 2003 (we played with you the next day), and that the super was very good.

I originally played with Kelly and the developer David Saland when it first opened. The amazing thing is he had sold about 1/3 of his memberships when 9/11 happened. He thought he was going to go under the next year. However, the opposite happened. After a quiet winter, people took their money out of soft assets (stock market) and put them into hard assets (real estate), and he sold out the following September and flipped the club to the membership.

As previously mentioned, I prefer Kelly's Hawk Pointe over in New Jersey, but would like to see LL again now that it has grown in.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 04:22:39 PM »
Gene,

Sometime around 2003 or earlier I started a thread about Laurel Links.

It's a neat golf course with a number of interesting and unique features.

Why did it take you so long to discover Laurel Links ?

A few months ago I flew over eastern Long Island and noticed a number of golf courses on the north and south fork.

What can you tell us about the Non-Big Name courses on the East end ?

Jason,

That's one of the challenges architect's face when dealing with residential communities.

The developer usually stakes out the home sites first, which is where the money is, that in turn limits the architect's options and provides for less than optimal views from the golf course.

One could say the same thing about some of the homes on thev early holes at AppleBrook, as well as the condos lining
# 18.

Had the developers been willing to not quite maximize their returns, they might have built better golf courses, which in turn, might have been better for the developer and the golf course in the long run.  But, when you have millions at risk, it's hard to ignore a return of your money and then a return on your money.

If the Bayberry property had been bought by some of the developers who bid on the property with the intent of building homes and a golf course, do you think the product would have come close to what JN & TD did in an unrestrained environment ?

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2005, 05:07:22 PM »

I was shocked that I hadn't heard more about it before.  


Unfortunately Kelly doesn't like to brag - even here, I wish he would more.  
I learn a lot from what he does share.

I'd guess he thinks bragging is akin to non-anonymous donations.  ;D
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

TEPaul

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2005, 06:38:18 PM »
This is very very good to hear how interesting this course is architecturally and to play.

It's so interesting to hear the reactions to truly firm and fast. I'm now convinced one can't just talk about firm and fast "through the greeen", one needs to quantify what they mean by firm and fast. In my opinion, the minimum for ideal  firm and fast is when the ball on landing "Through the green" bounces noticeably high and runs for a miimum of fifty yards and perhaps more. That's what I call the ideal of firm and fast and obviously for those who've played that maintenance meld it's an enhanced challenge due to the requirement to think through your choices after studying the course and the ground and it's also a ton of fun to see the ball skitter and skitter along to some cool place.

Very good for Kelly and very very good for Laurel Links's super!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2005, 06:41:49 PM »
If you guys liked Laurel Links....wait until you see Lederach!! :o :o

It is Laurel Links on Steroids! I'm biased, but KBM is clealrly one very underfollowed and realtively undiscovered architect.

Some of you here ought to send that dented-up ex-Texan a few IM's and get him to post about his latest achievement (tell him it beats watching the Aggies and Longhorns fight for the second fiddle).
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2005, 07:01:31 PM »
OK, that does it. Next year I'm going on a Kelly Blake Moran golf course and architecture investigation. Isn't it Mike Cirba who's always sung his praises on here? If so, that's a pretty strong recommendation, in my book. I'd say Mike Cirba is perhaps one of the most thoughtful and honest golf architecture analysts on this website---other than a few fixated blind-spots on Merion East he has and can't seem to find a way to get rid of! I guess on here once you commit to a very strong opinion on something it's pretty tough to change it ;)

The thing I like about Kelly Blake Moran (never having seen a course of his) is he keeps saying he's very much still in a learning mode and learning curve on golf course architecture. That kind of self-admitted open-mindness is a very good thing, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2005, 07:04:49 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2005, 08:49:12 PM »
10-4
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2005, 08:59:47 PM »
That's A-4 as in the sample taken from the 4th green at Augusta National to seed this entire frickin' (if I may borrow a phrase from the illustrious Shivas) golf course.

Course record is 71 and tournament play has been held here.

71
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 09:48:39 PM »
Gene,

Sometime around 2003 or earlier I started a thread about Laurel Links.

It's a neat golf course with a number of interesting and unique features.

Why did it take you so long to discover Laurel Links ?

Gene-   Always too preoccupied with getting to the next winery and/or pumkin patch for the "sprogs" (Rich Goodale).

A few months ago I flew over eastern Long Island and noticed a number of golf courses on the north and south fork.

What can you tell us about the Non-Big Name courses on the East end ?


Gene - Cedars - par three course in Cutchogue where Christian and I swear we saw the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker (extinct in 1935).
[Probably too much wine on my part and Christian was just high whipping my behind].

Island's End - in Greenport, next to NGLA's 17, Sebonack's 12th and Maidstone's 9th, possessor of the most beautiful setting for a hole on all of Long Island (16th).

North Fork Country Club - pleasant, local non - descript country club in Cutchogue partially taken over by the boys from Garden City. "The" place to belong on the North Fork prior to the fruition of Laurel Links.

Long Island National - challenging Robert Trent Jones Jr. track in Riverhead in open, windy, faux dunesy setting (site of former sod farm) which weaves in and out of mature treed environ and presents a relatively nice golfing experience. Nicely maintained.

Cherry Creek and The Woods - in Riverhead, the former an open, windy and pleasant public offering with moderate fees while the latter is the same except claustrophobic routing through the trees. Hence, the name "The Woods".

Noyac Golf Club - 1963 Mitchell design aside from Merion, the toughest 92 acred 18 hole golf course in America. Amazing routing in tiny property built by a dentist, Harry Diner.

South Fork Golf Club - Schizophrenic 18 with back nine designed by Gil Hanse and eminently recognizeable as real golf with several excellent and memorable golf holes. Front nine has few redeeming qualities but stands up as a challenging, but moreso frustrating, sequence of holes.

East Hampton Golf Club - miserable property but miraculously transformed into an excellent member's course by Bill and Ben.

Bridehampton Golf Club -  pleasant, little nine holer with little architectural appeal but a great deal of social panache.

Quogue Field Club - old, appropriately maintained (clean, firm) original design from the early 1900s with a few seaside holes and a neat Principals Nose set of bunkers guarding the par 4 8th.

Sag Harbor Golf Club - site of the last oil- based greens in America. Real greens built in 1990.

Gardiner's Bay - Shelter Island based golf club built by Seth Raynor pre 1920. Beautifully maintained short 18 holer, lots of fun with low scores aplenty and now a new home away  home  to many of the new monied set. Still very strong representation by the "Islanders".

Goat Hill (Shelter Island Golf Club) - old public course on Shelter Island with clubhouse dating from the teens.

Southampton Golf Club - 1925 Seth Raynor design with  Charles Banks completeing back nine after Raynor's death. With proper maintenance-meld could be considered a true classic.


"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Michael Hayes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2005, 10:16:19 PM »


Sag Harbor Golf Club - site of the last oil- based greens in America. Real greens built in 1990.


not so fast...Golf Club of Seattle, on Bainbridge Is. has 9 oiled sand greens TODAY!...this is a very private nine-holer that was the original back nine to Seattle CC back in the 20's...
Bandonistas Unite!!!

Jason Blasberg

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2005, 10:30:24 PM »
Gene:

I'd say you missed only Fox Hill, in Baiting Hollow, originally named Flag Golf Club it's an RTJ design that opened in the late 50s.  Great movement to the property whose northern most section sits atop a hill near the LI Sound (with no water views b/c that's where the condos went  :'()  :'(and whose southern most section skirts past an old cemetary (the 14th hole is a reachable 5 par but if you block your second to the right you're in the Dead Zone).  

The club has recently acquired some adjacent farm land to build a new clubhouse and driving range which are currently less than ideal and I believe they've retained Hurzdan and Fry to re-route and renovate the course to, among other things,  accomodate the change in club house locale.  

It's a very strong tract and has held local US Open qualifying for the last several years.  Greens are quite slippery and if the bunkering is renovated it could prove to be the biggest LI sleeper to awake in a long time.

Jason    

Jason Blasberg

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 10:40:55 PM »

Course record is 71 and tournament play has been held here.

71

If my looper was correct, he looped for the winner of the LI Amateur Stroke Play who shot a 6-over 148.  Although I heard the winner shot 70-78 so that would make the competitive course record 1-under 70.  

Tim McManus

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2005, 12:01:19 AM »
The LI Amateur stroke play champion (John McCreary) did shoot 70-78.  A visiting asst. pro shot 67 earlier in the summer during a pro-am, which I believe is the official course record.

As a member, I can attest that the course presents new challenges every round and that I am still learning new ways to play after 3+ seasons.  The course has gotten more difificult as it has grown in and firmed up - by approx. 2-3 strokes in my estimation since it opened.

Bill Shuford maintained incredible conditions during the summer drought and fall deluge.

The challenge for the membership going forward will be to keep things as they are.  Frankly the course is too difficult for many of the members and you often hear whispers that things are unfair.  Fortunately, the pro, the superintendant, the club manager and the board have a strong respect for the course as a whole and have wisely avoided making early judgements.  There are a few changes to three tee locations currently in progress that represent good judgement and dont interfere with the key elements that make things so interesting.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2005, 06:01:38 AM »
Rounding out Gene's and Blasbe's list:

Westhampton - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/westhampton1.html

Montauk Downs has been discussed frequently

Hampton Hills - Plays similar to Noyac with tight tree lined fairways



Rock Hill GC - Blasbe's family were at least some of the founders. Was probably the nicest public course "Up Island" till LI National. One nine is significantly better than the other.

Indian Island - Often driven by county course. Again the nine along Peconic Bay is quite nice and scenic, the other 9 is basic stuff.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2005, 08:14:56 AM »
Rock Hill GC - Blasbe's family were at least some of the founders. Was probably the nicest public course "Up Island" till LI National. One nine is significantly better than the other.

For the record it's my wife's family that was one of about 5 families that commissioned Frank Duane (who took equity in lieu of a fee) to build the course.  They are still very active in the day to day operating of the course.  I'm often told they have some of the best greens conditions for any public course on the East End.  

Even though it's basically in the lower third of LI (North to South) the elevation is such that on the 10th tee you can see Moriches Bay and the Atlantic Ocean (on a clear day).

Mike_Cirba

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2005, 08:30:10 AM »
OK, that does it. Next year I'm going on a Kelly Blake Moran golf course and architecture investigation. Isn't it Mike Cirba who's always sung his praises on here? If so, that's a pretty strong recommendation, in my book. I'd say Mike Cirba is perhaps one of the most thoughtful and honest golf architecture analysts on this website---other than a few fixated blind-spots on Merion East he has and can't seem to find a way to get rid of! I guess on here once you commit to a very strong opinion on something it's pretty tough to change it ;)


Tom,

Yeah, I'll take some credit for introducing Kelly's courses to this site.  It's probably about 5 years ago now that I wrote up an analysis of his Hawk Pointe CC in west-central NJ, calling it one of the most strategic and classically derived courses I'd played.  

Last year I also wrote some pretty detailed stuff about Morgan Hill GC near Easton, PA, which is a site I couldn't believe one could build a really good golf course on, yet Kelly succeeded.  

Lederach, if you're not familiar, is up near Pottstown, PA, and is supposed to open next year.  Wanna take a walk around sometime soon?

and Tom...I did come on here and say that Merion's bunkers do look much better due to some benign neglect and dying away of those bluegrass faces (while the fescue is thriving), but they still ain't anything like a "restoration" to 1930 or anything like what ever existed at Merion before, and to me, that's part of the threshold for achieving success with a self-proclaimed "restroration".  

I'm also not sure their increased depths really affects the top players as much as their prior "iffyness" in terms of providing a hazard.  
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 08:34:09 AM by Mike Cirba »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2005, 08:39:59 AM »
Tom,

Yeah, I'll take some credit for introducing Kelly's courses to this site.  It's probably about 5 years ago now that I wrote up an analysis of his Hawk Pointe CC in west-central NJ, calling it one of the most strategic and classically derived courses I'd played.  

Last year I also wrote some pretty detailed stuff about Morgan Hill GC near Easton, PA, which is a site I couldn't believe one could build a really good golf course on, yet Kelly succeeded.  

Quote


Mike,

   Wait a few years to see what Kelly does with the Old Bridge property...in his own words: " the best piece of land I've gotten yet!"

 ;D
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 09:14:25 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2005, 08:42:46 AM »


Sag Harbor Golf Club - site of the last oil- based greens in America. Real greens built in 1990.

Shouldn't have posted that, Michael. The ecoterrorists will be coming after them. 8)


not so fast...Golf Club of Seattle, on Bainbridge Is. has 9 oiled sand greens TODAY!...this is a very private nine-holer that was the original back nine to Seattle CC back in the 20's...
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Mike_Cirba

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2005, 08:46:46 AM »

Mike,

   Wait a few years to see what Kelly does with the Old Bridge property...in hos own words: " the best piece of land I've gotten yet!"

 ;D

Steve,

I'll be very interested to see.  Most of the sites he's gotten to date have been burdened with a prominent housing component.  A pure golf experience on a good site will be something I'm sure he can enhance.

TEPaul

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2005, 08:50:05 AM »
Mike Cirba said;

".....but they still ain't anything like a "restoration" to 1930 or anything like what ever existed at Merion before, and to me, that's part of the threshold for achieving success with a self-proclaimed "restroration"."

Well, you ARE being a picky little gnat this morning, aren't you?

Did you actually hear them say or self-proclaim a "restoration" about their project?  I don't think so. What I heard them say is "Back to the Future" about their project. ;) Call it a "resto-renno-rede-thingy" project if you want to. All I can say about the playability of those bunkers now compared to the way they used to be is----don't hit your ProVx into any of those surrounds these days if you want to find it again. Just ask Nebraska's Long John Hurley!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 08:51:39 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2005, 09:08:15 AM »

Did you actually hear them say or self-proclaim a "restoration" about their project?  I don't think so. What I heard them say is "Back to the Future" about their project. ;)

Sure I did, Tom.  After they rebuilt the bunkers and nearly everyone with an eye for this stuff said they sucked, they began a counter-offensive, PR campaign and that's the first time I heard them say that the intent was to take the course back to exactly as it was in 1930, probably figuring that nobody would know that the bunkers didn't look like that in 1930 either.  ;D

But, let's not digress too far.  Let me know when you want to take a walk around Lederach.  I think you'll enjoy Kelly's stuff.  

ForkaB

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2005, 09:40:44 AM »
Boy am I glad that I already got Kelly to give me a quote about the Old Course for my new book.  If I'd waited until he became a superstar, lord knows how much that would have cost me!

Great stuff, Kelly!

TEPaul

Re:Laurel Links - Major Surprise
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2005, 10:37:37 AM »
Gene Greco said:

"That's A-4 as in the sample taken from the 4th green at Augusta National to seed this entire frickin' (if I may borrow a phrase from the illustrious Shivas) golf course."

Gene:

Are you saying the entire golf course of Laurel Links is A-4??? If so, My God, I thought that stuff was as expensive as saffron or truffles!

If the whole 'frickin' place really is seeded with A-4 that might better explain why it's so 'frickin' firm and fast. The feedback on A-4 is it just looooves dryness!!  ;)

"Let me know when you want to take a walk around Lederach.  I think you'll enjoy Kelly's stuff."

MikeC:

Why don't you let me know when you want to take a walk around Lederach? I'm quite sure you're busier than I am. ;)

Let's see if we can do it when we can hook up with architecture's new superstar, Texas's own Kelly Blake Moran! Did you know Kelly has been seriously reading some Max Behr? Yep, so God only knows what he'll come up with in the future. He'd better tell his client to give him a bunch of land because if you're gonna be inspired by Max you pretty much might need "Triple-Wide". One thing Max thought really sucked in golf and architecture was rough!  ;)  
 
 

« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 10:46:17 AM by TEPaul »